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The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

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Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#41

Post by moomoo11 »

quantummagic wrote: post #32
IlikeKitties wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So instead of speaking from the high ground, please, tell us what your solution about mass disinformation happening from US social media megacorps, Russia mass disinformation, mass recruitment of people for sabotage on critical infrastructure. Education. Education. Education. The only thing that ever worked. is Education. Censorship and a total surveillance state aren't an option. Why bother protecting freedom and…

> Education. Education. Education. The problem is that many of the most highly educated people are the ones fully supporting censorship in the fight against disinformation. Higher education has become a bastion of illiberal ideology.

I think it’s because once you educate yourself, you see how the masses behave and it’s like the ultimate revelation.

They are consumers. Feeders. They want to be told what to think.

Most people don’t even have an internal monologue and many people say they don’t even think much, not even a thought.

You thought for yourself. You used your brain. But you are outnumbered. Vastly.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#43

Post by pavlov »

hexbin010 wrote: post #26
IlikeKitties wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already MANY laws in the EU and Germany for me regarding privacy. All the proposals are blatantly illegal in Germany for example. Just recently our highest court declared large scale logging of DNS request as "very likely" illegal.

> There are already MANY laws in the EU and Germany for me regarding privacy Which apply equally to the government?

Germany has a history of its government using data collected about citizens against them.

Much legislation was created after WWII to try to prevent that from happening again.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#45

Post by paulryanrogers »

quantummagic wrote: post #32
IlikeKitties wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So instead of speaking from the high ground, please, tell us what your solution about mass disinformation happening from US social media megacorps, Russia mass disinformation, mass recruitment of people for sabotage on critical infrastructure. Education. Education. Education. The only thing that ever worked. is Education. Censorship and a total surveillance state aren't an option. Why bother protecting freedom and…

> Education. Education. Education. The problem is that many of the most highly educated people are the ones fully supporting censorship in the fight against disinformation. Higher education has become a bastion of illiberal ideology.

Just because some education implementations have problems doesn't mean education itself must be excluded from the solution.

Public education and universities played a large role in freeing me from generations of magical thinking and religious indoctrination.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#46

Post by timschmidt »

delusional wrote: post #42
ori_b wrote: post #17

Until people lobby for these privacy rights to be enshrined in law, this will continue to be a problem. Defeating one bad law isn't enough.

[flagged]

The Epstein debacle seems to indicate that child sexual exploitation is a preferred method of entrapping, blackmailing, and controlling world political and science leaders and the wealthy. And implicates the same intelligence agencies calling for mass surveillance.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#47

Post by pteraspidomorph »

aaomidi wrote: post #10
friend-monoid wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you expecting a public IPv4 from a VPN?

Airvpn does it

I'm happy Airvpn is rarely mentioned in mainstream vpn lists and don't typically mention them myself (sorry airvpn folks, but here's my apology) because I suspect its relative obscurity is in great part the reason it works so well. Not only reputation - it's technologically good too, supports all the payment methods, good prices, lots of exit points, no nonsense. I've been using them continuously for several years.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#48

Post by trueismywork »

delusional wrote: post #42
ori_b wrote: post #17

Until people lobby for these privacy rights to be enshrined in law, this will continue to be a problem. Defeating one bad law isn't enough.

[flagged]

Its like govt banning bleach and when chemical companies protest, the govt tells them to fix problem of people mixing bleach and vinegar. Its a problem, it has to be solved. If you dont like this, find another solution govt says.

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#49

Post by rvnx »

pavlov wrote: post #43
hexbin010 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are already MANY laws in the EU and Germany for me regarding privacy Which apply equally to the government?

Germany has a history of its government using data collected about citizens against them. Much legislation was created after WWII to try to prevent that from happening again.

It hasn't stopped the German Interior Ministry from campaigning for EU-wide chat control and pushing to reinstate mass data retention

Re: The Going Dark initiative or ProtectEU is a Chat Control 3.0 attempt

#50

Post by quotemstr »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #45
quantummagic wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Education. Education. Education. The problem is that many of the most highly educated people are the ones fully supporting censorship in the fight against disinformation. Higher education has become a bastion of illiberal ideology.

Just because some education implementations have problems doesn't mean education itself must be excluded from the solution. Public education and universities played a large role in freeing me from generations of magical thinking and religious indoctrination.

Universities may have cured us of some forms of indoctrination but exposed us to others: for example, nuclear power was demonized for decades is academia and our avoiding it has set us back as a civilization.

The "answer" here isn't education per se. A would-be censor might look at the spread of an inconvenient idea and conclude the education isn't working and therefore harder measures are justified.

The answer is epistemic humility and historical literacy. A good education instills both. They teach us that one can be wrong without shame, that testing ideas makes us stronger, and that no good has come out of boost ideas beyond what their merits can support.

Specifically, I want universities to do a much better job of teaching people to argue a perspective with which they disagree. A well-educated person can hold the best version of his opponent's idea in mind and argue it persuasively enough that his opponent agrees that he's been fairly heard. If people can't do that at scale, they're tempted to reach for censorship instead of truth seeking.

Another thing I want from universities (and all schools) is for them to inculcate the idea that the popularity of an idea has nothing to do with its merits. The irrational primate brain up-weights ideas it sees more often. The censor (if we're steelmanning) believes that coordinated influence campaigns can hijack the popularity heuristic and make people believe things they wouldn't if those ideas diffused organically through the information ecosystem.

This idea is internally consistent, sure, but 1) the censorship "cure" is always worse than the disease, and 2) we can invest in bolstering epistemics instead of in beefing up censorship.

We are rational primates. We can override popularity heuristics. Doing so is a skill we must be taught, however, and one of the highest ROI things we can do in education right now is teach it.

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