New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
1–10 of 112 posts
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#2Oh man, Stephen Wolfram and Jürgen Schmidthuber are probably fuming at the fact that this is called a "new" mathematical framework. It's all very old, and quite conventional, even popular -- not exactly the road not taken.
What the author did was use the Physical Church-Turing thesis, and Kleene's second recursion theorem, to show that: (1) If a universe’s dynamics are computable (PCT), and (2) the universe can implement universal computation (RPCT), then (3) the universe can simulate itself, including the computer doing the simulating.
That's basically all. And thus "there would be two identical instances of us, both equally 'real'." (Two numerically distinct processes are empirically identical if they are indistinguishable. You might remember this sort of thing from late 20th c. philosophy coursework.)
He also uses Rice’s theorem (old) to show that there is no uniform measure over the set of "possible universes."
It's all very interesting, but it's more a review article than a "new mathematical framework." The notion of a mathematical/simulated universe is as old as Pythagoras (~550 BC), and Rice, Church-Turing, and Kleene are all approaching the 100-year mark.
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#3Zero cost abstractions! I'd almost be interested in Bostrom's inevitable physics-based counter (if he wasn't such a racist bellend).
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#4Like running Kubernetes in a Docker container.
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#5Oh man, Stephen Wolfram and Jürgen Schmidthuber are probably fuming at the fact that this is called a "new" mathematical framework. It's all very old, and quite conventional, even popular -- not exactly the road not taken. What the author did was use the Physical Church-Turing thesis, and Kleene's second recursion theorem, to show that: (1) If a universe’s dynamics are computable (PCT), and (2) the universe can imple…
It’s also a little silly for the same reasons discussions of theoretical computability often are: time and space requirements. In practice the Universe, even if computable, is so complex that simulating it would require far more compute than physical particles and far more time than remaining until heat death.
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#6Oh man, Stephen Wolfram and Jürgen Schmidthuber are probably fuming at the fact that this is called a "new" mathematical framework. It's all very old, and quite conventional, even popular -- not exactly the road not taken. What the author did was use the Physical Church-Turing thesis, and Kleene's second recursion theorem, to show that: (1) If a universe’s dynamics are computable (PCT), and (2) the universe can imple…
I'm no mathematician, but doesn't this come up against Gödel's incompleteness theorem? My brain has that roughly as "If you have a system and a model of that system, but the model is also part of the same system, something something, impossible"
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#7The simulation hypothesis takes something reasonable, that reality is "virtual," and runs it into absurdity.
If the universe isn't "real" in the materialist sense, that does not imply that there's a "real" universe outside of the one we perceive, nor does it imply that we're being "simulated" by other intelligences.
The path of minimal assumptions from reality not being "real" is idealism. We're not simulated, we're manifesting.
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#8Oh man, Stephen Wolfram and Jürgen Schmidthuber are probably fuming at the fact that this is called a "new" mathematical framework. It's all very old, and quite conventional, even popular -- not exactly the road not taken. What the author did was use the Physical Church-Turing thesis, and Kleene's second recursion theorem, to show that: (1) If a universe’s dynamics are computable (PCT), and (2) the universe can imple…
Thanks for this great comment!
> He also uses Rice’s theorem (old) to show that there is no uniform measure over the set of "possible universes."
I assume a finite uniform measure? Presumably |set| is a uniform measure over the set of "possible universes".
Anyway if I understood that correctly, than this is not that surprising? There isn't a finite uniform measure over the real line. If you only consider the possible universes of two particles at any distance from eachother, this models the real line and therefore has no finite uniform measure.
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#9Funny people still call that "simulation hypothesis". At some point they should try to do some Past lives regressions or Out of body experience (astral projection). Then they'll know for sure what this reality is about.
Re: New mathematical framework reshapes debate over simulation hypothesis
#10The simulation hypothesis takes something reasonable, that reality is "virtual," and runs it into absurdity. If the universe isn't "real" in the materialist sense, that does not imply that there's a "real" universe outside of the one we perceive, nor does it imply that we're being "simulated" by other intelligences. The path of minimal assumptions from reality not being "real" is idealism. We're not simulated, we're…
Exactly, it's paradoxical; how would you define the universe as a simulation, without being on the same substrate! The title should have focused more on the computability of the universe, as we know it.