Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered • Hacker News Board

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#71

Post by nicksergeant » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:31 PM UTC

elliott99 wrote: post #62

nicksergeant wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cheating" is not "making a mistake".

Forget the certificate. If you enroll in a coursera course to learn, and you need some help getting started on the code or checking your work, why not take a look at the code? Not submitting it as your own, of course, but taking ownership of your education, which is all that matters.

Sure, I think that's perfectly fine. Coursera needs to provide some ability (if they don't already) to allow a student to say "not taking this for credit or certificate".

But I don't think that should allow you to go and post code / answers in a public forum of sorts.

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#72

Post by jonknee » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

nicksergeant wrote: post #55

namank wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, thats harsh. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone slips. Making mistakes is an integral part of iterating towards the better.

"Cheating" is not "making a mistake".

It's "cheating" though in the sense that it's against a TOS on a website, but tons of things are against a TOS and almost no one reads them. They're pretending to be one, but Coursera is not a college, is not accredited and does not hand out degrees. This is a free online self-study course being taken by hundreds of thousands of people with varying degrees of seriousness. Some people may treat it like a college course and want the certificate (for what I am not sure), but I bet most people just want the knowledge. I signed up for a similar course once and never logged in because my schedule changed, should I get an F and have that publicized?

I have also worked through some iOS courses from Standford on iTunes U and I would not think twice about helping someone with one of the problems. Is that cheating?

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#73

Post by gcb » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:34 PM UTC

blaines wrote: post #59

edw519 wrote: post #42

Actually, this is valuable data. As a potential employer, I care more about the candidate's ethics (or lack thereof) than their ability. I could always teach them, but I could never trust them. Coursera should just publicly identify cheaters so I can cross check against resumes or certifications. Problem solved.

It's possible students (ignorantly) made their work public because they were proud of their accomplishments. I've done that once or twice under the assumption the course would change for other classes, if only slightly. That being said, the onus is on the student to make sure they aren't submitting someone's work as their own. I'm not really sure if they understood what they were doing was serious (as in if Coursera…

Most of my old uni assignments are public because i use free code repos for them.

Heck, my thesis latex files are still in my public Google code repository.

The punishment should be on people that copy not who have content publicly available.

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#74

Post by Permit » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:34 PM UTC

pawelwentpawel wrote: post #46

Permit wrote: post #31

I'm of the opinion that the value of Coursera's courses comes from the learning opportunity, not the certification. I think they should simply allow cheating and not issue certificates. Alternatively, allow cheating and continue to issue certificates while letting employers decide the true value of the certificates. The point of Coursera (to me) isn't to pad my resume, it's to learn from courses not always offered at…

Just wondering - would you put a certificate from Coursera on your resume? I raised this question a while ago in here : http://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/2074/showing-co... Also - cases will be handled on an individual basis - I guess it's not a standard sized class. There is a few hundred people signed up at least. Putting up a free course in functional programming seems like a lot of work. On top of that…

I would not list it under "Education" alongside a formal degree. However, I might mention it in a cover letter to demonstrate passion and internal motivation for a given subject.

While I'm quick to condemn certification, I can see the other side of this argument as well. To a lot of people, Coursera represents the opportunity to overhaul a broken education system. In order for true change, Coursera must not only demonstrate that it can educate people, but that it can do so credibly and consistently.

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#75

Post by monksy » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:38 PM UTC

Permit wrote: post #31

I'm of the opinion that the value of Coursera's courses comes from the learning opportunity, not the certification. I think they should simply allow cheating and not issue certificates. Alternatively, allow cheating and continue to issue certificates while letting employers decide the true value of the certificates. The point of Coursera (to me) isn't to pad my resume, it's to learn from courses not always offered at…

What employer takes Coursera classes seriously?

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#76

Post by wpietri » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:39 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #72

nicksergeant wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cheating" is not "making a mistake".

It's "cheating" though in the sense that it's against a TOS on a website, but tons of things are against a TOS and almost no one reads them. They're pretending to be one, but Coursera is not a college, is not accredited and does not hand out degrees. This is a free online self-study course being taken by hundreds of thousands of people with varying degrees of seriousness. Some people may treat it like a college cours…

If people sign up for a course like this and then turn in work they copied from the Internet, I definitely don't want to hire them. Even if they weren't after the certificate. That's like cheating at solitaire. It's just sad.

Also, do you have any evidence that the no-cheating, no-publishing-homework policy is buried in a TOS? If Coursera hasn't made it obvious enough, then sure, people could have made a mistake. But Odersky's a smart guy so his reaction makes me imagine he made the requirement obvious.

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#77

Post by blaines » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:40 PM UTC

think-large wrote: post #61

jmduke wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree, which is why I find the cheating so interesting. I strongly doubt that any employers are going to lend much value to the certification so early in Coursera's lifespan, but I don't doubt that cheating is going to continue even though the only thing you 'truly' gain from a Coursera course is knowledge.

I agree with you, but that is mostly because I already have a 4 year degree in Engineering and I'm assuming you do too. There is a problem in the fact that many people cannot afford that degree because their parents can't afford it (or the loans that they'd need). Cheating degrades the quality of education at any level. Cheaters are trying to get accreditation when they shouldn't. While Cheating is all over in educat…

People shouldn't let cheating degrade the quality of education. You either possess the skills or you don't, and if you don't you shouldn't act like you do. It'll probably be obvious. Here's the scenario in my mind...

A: "Oh hey I know how to program Scala"

B: "Ok program Scala..."

A: "Well I only got the cert, I don't actually know."

B: "Sorry I guess you're not qualified then. Why don't you learn?"

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#78

Post by Permit » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:40 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #40

Permit wrote: post #31

I'm of the opinion that the value of Coursera's courses comes from the learning opportunity, not the certification. I think they should simply allow cheating and not issue certificates. Alternatively, allow cheating and continue to issue certificates while letting employers decide the true value of the certificates. The point of Coursera (to me) isn't to pad my resume, it's to learn from courses not always offered at…

>I think they should simply allow cheating and not issue certificates. This kind of thinking really bothers me. They've gone to some pains to ensure their certification has some level of meaning, and now they want to chuck it all out the window based on the actions of a tiny minority. Collective punishment is usually the product of lazy thinking.

Fair enough. Perhaps, the second option I proposed might work. The value of a Coursera certificate will not be reduced if it continues to be only a tiny minority who cheats.

I suppose I've always been of the opinion that they should offer the courses in a fashion similar to that of Khan Academy. I don't expect a certificate when I complete a section there as I'm there for the purpose of educating myself, not for accrediting myself. I think it's hard for Coursera to fulfill accreditation, but wish them the best if it's what they want to try for.

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#79

Post by DennisP » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:41 PM UTC

jasonkeene wrote: post #27

mikecaron wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if it's against school policy, the school has the right to expel you. Coursera is not taking the public code down, the owner is, at the coercion of the school. The student is making a value decision: continue the course or take my code down. If you can't play by the rules, you can't be in the game. I think there's a unique opportunity for GitHub here. They could give an educational license to verified stude…

Github already offers free micro plan (5 private repos) for verified students. Unlimited private repos is a rather big hammer and might attract abuse. edit for link: https://github.com/edu

If you're on Coursera there's a good chance you don't have a .edu address.

Maybe Coursera should host private repos?

Re: Coursera's Functional Programming - Cheating Discovered

#80

Post by peejaybee » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 3:41 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #26

Shame on the cheaters, but I don't see how they're hurting anyone but themselves. In the spirit of the Platonic ideal of the Academy it seems beneficial to freely share and exchange ideas.

I'm not sure I agree 100% with your police work there.

I am enrolled in the class, and when I got the e-mail, my first thought was "Great. Now I have to worry about whether or not my work will look too similar to someone else's, or to the solutions that have been posted."

Granted, my first submission for assignment #2 was a third of a point short of 10/10, so maybe I don't have anything to worry about.