How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize • Hacker News Board

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#51

Post by personlurking » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 11:56 AM UTC

se85 wrote: post #39

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often made excuses to myself along the lines of "there are just fewer people I get along with because I'm gifted" or something like that. But I can't buy those completely, because there are plenty of people smarter than me who don't seem to have that problem. Edit: You might reframe what friends are for? Common interests are really important, but not an absolute necessity.

I was like this several years ago myself, the key is in being humble whilst still being argumentative without sounding like a wanker - it's possible!

Tis' a fine line! I throw in plenty of humble statements as I like to think the only thing I really know is that I know nothing (though this makes me want to learn more, question more). I also throw in bits and pieces of random things I've studied and hope the other person doesn't just find it interesting for a moment but rather goes home thinking about it. Of course, possible they don't find it interesting at all and just think I'm a wanker.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#52

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:00 PM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #24

kijin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intellig…

I do find it interesting that we ask Aspies to become more empathetic, but we don't ask neurotipicals to become a little less hung up on social niceties. Obviously, neurotypicals get the benefit of the doubt for "how people should be", since there are so many more of them. But we don't ask gays to be straight, despite not being "normal", numerically, so why should we ask Aspies to be more empathetic? Why assume an As…

The very low prevalence of the condition means that people with Asperger's would have to enjoy vastly higher rates of reproductive success to become a substantial portion of the population. That doesn't seem to be the case.

And that presumes that there is a mostly genetic basis for the condition (the womb environment does seem to factor into autistic spectrum disorders).

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#53

Post by graeme » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:03 PM UTC

borplk wrote: post #47

Is that what you really want? To me it's just promoting the manipulation of other people. Because hey, it's a skill so it's ok. Doesn't it bother you? To know that the person you are talking to, is mirroring your emotions, or offering sympathy, to manipulate you into liking them? I very much prefer the Aspergers-like honesty. I would rather hear 9 harsh, blunt, honest criticisms a day and 1 genuine complement than to…

Faking this stuff doesn't work well in the long run. How to win friends and influence people says to give people genuine compliments.

I've gone through this kind of transportation. Certainly doesn't feel malicious to me. The main result is that people are a lot happier to be around me.

Your argument feels analogous to someone worried by the teaching of logic. The students will become too clever and use their skills to outsmart the others.

I've seen hustlers use these skills for malice of course. Some get fooled by them, but they're pretty transparent to most people if used insincerely.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#54

Post by personlurking » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:10 PM UTC

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #14

personlurking wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As is probably the case with most of us here, I didn't suspect this because my intelligence in all other arenas is excellent." I'd like to branch off from this comment a bit. What happens when your intelligence, like wealth (a comparison I recently started making), creates a gap between yourself and others? What happens when you want to talk about really interesting things ('go to a fancy restaurant') but others bas…

I've often made excuses to myself along the lines of "there are just fewer people I get along with because I'm gifted" or something like that. But I can't buy those completely, because there are plenty of people smarter than me who don't seem to have that problem. Edit: You might reframe what friends are for? Common interests are really important, but not an absolute necessity.

Your last statement is quite possible but I've found two groups forming: those who like to go out and those who like to think yet have accepted going out, albeit in more interesting ways. The latter might go to an open-mic night or spend their evening seeing a new foreign film and later, a beer or two in a venue where people can actually hear each other. While those things are preferable to me, they are icing on the cake since the subjects discussed along the night are about a new study they read or a new connection they made while taking a walk that day. If these people ever need to go a few layers deeper because you've got them excited, they can easily go deeper. I'm 31 and I've probably personally met maybe 6 people like this...ever.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#55

Post by nnq » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:22 PM UTC

rcthompson wrote: post #27

kijin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intellig…

> At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. Yep, that's exactly what it feels like to me. I recently got diagnosed with Asperger's. I find it impossible to do "social intelligence" in real time during a conversation. The frustrating part is that the signal is obviously there, since other people pick…

If you can do it "not in real time" it means you could also get good enough at it to do it "in real time". I don't say that you should as you probably (assuming the best) are a great human being the way you are, and you shouldn't try be more like neurotypicals because other people tell you to. Or that you should be blamed for liking the way you are and preferring to stay this way.

But remember that the human brain is a wonderfully adaptive thing: neurotypicals can become more like you and you can become more like them (but they don't have to and you don't have to), so don't let the fact that someone "diagnosed" you one way FOOL YOU INTO BELIEVING THAT YOUR BRAIN IS NOT (ALMOST) INFINITELY ADAPTIVE! That's the greatest danger of diagnosing these things, it makes people forget about the IMENSE adaptive potential of their own mind (and this potential is universal, you could just as well use it to better undertand quantum mechanics as you could to "become" more like neurotypicals, your life, your choice!)

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#56

Post by nnq » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 12:34 PM UTC

personlurking wrote: post #11

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had a growing hypothesis that my social intelligence with acquaintances and big groups (as opposed to close friends) is actually very bad. As is probably the case with most of us here, I didn't suspect this because my intelligence in all other arenas is excellent. I think I was further insulated from the problem because I was in small schools through high school, and never really felt socially deficient as a r…

"As is probably the case with most of us here, I didn't suspect this because my intelligence in all other arenas is excellent." I'd like to branch off from this comment a bit. What happens when your intelligence, like wealth (a comparison I recently started making), creates a gap between yourself and others? What happens when you want to talk about really interesting things ('go to a fancy restaurant') but others bas…

I actually thought of having some sort of internet social network that would help people find other people like them using criteria like "believe and practice lifelong learning", "have diverse and special interests" and features like that I actually believe CAN be defined, even mathematically.

It sometimes amazes me how "socially retarded" thing like Facebook and Google+ are... there's so much more one could do in these areas that all the "facebookies" that mentally jerk of in hackathlons and quickly code new "cool" video sharing features should be doing instead...

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#57

Post by five18pm » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:08 PM UTC

corporalagumbo wrote: post #3

"I feel like Neo at the end of The Matrix now." As much as I hate to admit it, I can identify with this. Becoming socially literate for me too has felt and continues to feel almost like a superpower. That "Wow! I can't believe I can do this!" feeling is a bit of a rush. I think what the author is describing is something of a growing trend. It has become relatively easy to make it through to adulthood with very low so…

Steven Pinker's book 'The Stuff of Thought' deals with this sort of phrasing. And he explains it quite better than what I can. So here is the relevant excerpt from the book:

Why don't people just say what they mean? The reason is that conversational partners are not modems downloading information into each other's brains. People are very, very touchy about their relationships. Whenever you speak to someone, you are presuming the two of you have a certain degree of familiarity--which your words might alter. So every sentence has to do two things at once: convey a message and continue to negotiate that relationship.

The clearest example is ordinary politeness. When you are at a dinner party and want the salt, you don't blurt out, "Gimme the salt." Rather, you use what linguists call a whimperative, as in "Do you think you could pass the salt?" or "If you could pass the salt, that would be awesome."

Taken literally, these sentences are inane. The second is an overstatement, and the answer to the first is obvious. Fortunately, the hearer assumes that the speaker is rational and listens between the lines. Yes, your point is to request the salt, but you're doing it in such a way that first takes care to establish what linguists call "felicity conditions," or the prerequisites to making a sensible request. The underlying rationale is that the hearer not be given a command but simply be asked or advised about one of the necessary conditions for passing the salt. Your goal is to have your need satisfied without treating the listener as a flunky who can be bossed around at will.[1]

Analytically minded people would do well to pick up this book and try to understand the science behind our interactions.

[1] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1659772,00....

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#58

Post by kijin » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:12 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #49

rcthompson wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. Yep, that's exactly what it feels like to me. I recently got diagnosed with Asperger's. I find it impossible to do "social intelligence" in real time during a conversation. The frustrating part is that the signal is obviously there, since other people pick…

Paul Ekman has extensively documented micro expressions, which are trace views of the signal. Studying them will teach you the normal, longer expressions too, that's how I learned. How exactly does asperger's work? For me the learning process went: Learn that crinkles under the eye mean smile is real --> observe it quite a bit --> learn to see it naturally and intuitively That doesn't feel any different from any norm…

> learn to see it naturally and intuitively

What exactly does it mean for something to become natural and intuitive? It's not unimaginable for an Aspie to learn to observe all sorts of behavioral hints -- BBC's recent incarnation of Sherlock Holmes does this exceptionally well -- but does he actually reach the decision that "This person is telling the truth" by the same process that a "normal" person does?

In my experience as an Aspie, it never happens automatically, and it never feels natural. I can hear every line of the code that's being interpreted and executed in my mind. I have a fast CPU, so it doesn't take long, but it definitely happens.

    if (smile) {
        try {
            check_wrinkles(under_eyes);
        }
        catch (CantTellException) {
            make_do_with_rough_assumption();
        }
    }

Even worse, Aspies tend to focus intensely on one thing at a time, so multi-tasking is risky business. An Aspie who learned to watch for wrinkles under eyes in real-time might focus so much on nothing but wrinkles under eyes, so that much more obvious signs of lying go completely unnoticed. In other words, check_wrinkles() blocks everything else. Similarly, even though I have extensive experience both in walking around and in hearing my own name, if somebody calls my name from behind while I'm walking, there's over 50% chance that the call won't even register, because every event handler must wait while walk() blocks. Also, the whole program crashes when an unanticipated exception occurs, resulting in extreme frustration.

As a consequence, when an Aspie finally gets enough practice to pass as normal, he might look like a normal person to casual observers, but the Aspie himself is always painfully aware that what he's doing is neither natural nor intuitive. At best, he's got the script cached in RAM for quick access.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#59

Post by TinyBig » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:20 PM UTC

The book mentioned in the article, "Definitive Book of Body Language" is an excellent resource. However, it is more of an encyclopedia - comprehensive, but lacking in context. I began this journey some years ago and found Navarro's "What Every Body is Saying" a more helpful starting place. Gives a framework to help understand body language, something that may prove helpful if you are starting from square zero.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#60

Post by personlurking » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:24 PM UTC

nnq wrote: post #56

personlurking wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As is probably the case with most of us here, I didn't suspect this because my intelligence in all other arenas is excellent." I'd like to branch off from this comment a bit. What happens when your intelligence, like wealth (a comparison I recently started making), creates a gap between yourself and others? What happens when you want to talk about really interesting things ('go to a fancy restaurant') but others bas…

I actually thought of having some sort of internet social network that would help people find other people like them using criteria like "believe and practice lifelong learning", "have diverse and special interests" and features like that I actually believe CAN be defined, even mathematically. It sometimes amazes me how "socially retarded" thing like Facebook and Google+ are... there's so much more one could do in th…

Yeah, that part really stinks. I've had that thought, too. I suppose in some sense this is what subreddits are, but no one cares about being your friend on Reddit.