Live data from Hacker News

Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

extremetech.com

21–30 of 31 posts

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#21
post #20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fusion-based nuclear weapons, a fission bomb is used to create the temperature and pressure needed to kick off nuclear fusion. Calling that "combined fusion/fission" is like calling my car an electric hybrid because it uses an electric starter. Detonating a nuclear weapon inside of a power plant isn't really practical. :-) Existing nuclear power plants don't get anywhere near the temperature and pressure needed to…

That's a popular misconception, IIRC. Actually, in thermonuclear weapon the bulk of energy comes from fission. [1] Fusion is technically only used to get the high energy neutrons to get the bulk of fissionable material to undergo fission. So, ironically, calling it a "fusion bomb" is very much like calling your car an electric hybrid. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon

Where those weapons get the most energy from depends heavily on the design. It's true that multi-stage thermonuclear devices often have a final fission stage where huge amounts of energy are released, however if one were to purposefully maximize energy release while minimizing fallout there are some relatively clean fusion/fission ratios achievable.

For instance, the test version of the Tsar bomb had its last fission stage removed, reportedly resulting in a 97% fusion detonation. Of course, those still cause a huge lethal neutron flux, but at least the amount of fission material released is pretty small in relation to the overall power of the device.

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#23

I hadn't heard of magnetized liner inertial fusion before. Is it really as promising as the article makes it seem? What happens if they get just a little above break even?

Fusion power is actually already above break even. There are a lot more practical engineering problems with fusion power before that means anything, though. Most of these problems have to do with materials science: Plasma is incredibly difficult to contain, and it's very difficult to design a cooling system that could work sustainably. Without a cooling system, there is no way to make use of the heat generated in fusion.

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#24
post #6

What about the combined fusion/fission options? I mean that's what the h-bomb and the sun do right?

I think combined fusion/fission options are the clear choice for the future. (Also, yes, that is what the H-bomb does, and no, that is not what the sun does.)

Here's how combined fusion/fission plants would theoretically work:

A fusion reaction is used to create a large quantity of high-energy neutrons. These high-energy neutrons are then used to cause fission in an otherwise subcritical fission assembly with extremely low enrichment fuel. 'Natural' uranium (U-238) is fissionable, which means that it can undergo fission in the presence of /high energy/ neutrons.

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#25

"Clean"? Less dirty than fission, absolutely. Enough less dirty to make it manageable in a way that fission doesn't seem to be, more than likely. But not clean. Any material in and around the reactor becomes nuclear waste in the same manner as it does for fission: by getting blasted with high-energy particles until it becomes radioactive. And while there wouldn't be any spent fuel rods to deal with, one of the produc…

Clean, yes. By any measure, cleaner than what else is out there. Already a fission nuclear power plant will produce less leakage of radioactivity into the environment than many coal plants, fusion drops that level several orders of magnitude more. First off, no fission products, which are typically the most dangerous radioactive waste from fission reactors. Second, the materials used in the reactors don't have the sa…

^ -intact- fission nuclear power plant ^ should ^ might ^ dramatically greater engineering constraints than fission reactors ^ (if you exclude engineering and manufacturing and plant construction costs)

Sorry for the highlighter attack, but fusion still means building extraordinarily complex and expensive reactors that are going to have one hell of a carbon footprint and shed tons of radioactive waste in normal operation.

Let's roll it back to "potentially cleaner in some key ways".

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#26
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clean, yes. By any measure, cleaner than what else is out there. Already a fission nuclear power plant will produce less leakage of radioactivity into the environment than many coal plants, fusion drops that level several orders of magnitude more. First off, no fission products, which are typically the most dangerous radioactive waste from fission reactors. Second, the materials used in the reactors don't have the sa…

^ -intact- fission nuclear power plant ^ should ^ might ^ dramatically greater engineering constraints than fission reactors ^ (if you exclude engineering and manufacturing and plant construction costs) Sorry for the highlighter attack, but fusion still means building extraordinarily complex and expensive reactors that are going to have one hell of a carbon footprint and shed tons of radioactive waste in normal opera…

[deleted]

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#27

Wow, fusion power in less than 15 years! Gee whiz! Actually, the 15 years out time frame puts it beyond what I've expected, 10 years out. That's where fusion has been for most of my life, 10 years from now.

The sad thing is we've already got the technology for clean(er), cheaper reactors now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbyr7jZOllI

But we lack the infrastructure and investment to build them.

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#28
This article does not mention some important context.

I don't know all the ins and outs, but it's important to understand that the big US experiment in nuclear fusion was NIF, at LLNL. They (perhaps rashly) promised net energy gain by the end of this fiscal year. This whole thing was part of an elaborate political deal regarding maintaining nuclear expertise during the test ban treaty.

Anyway, net gain did not happen; the ratio of energy out to energy in at the NIF is 0.1. This had been expected for many months now (indeed, it was predicted by some as soon as the deal was cut, years ago.)

At this point, the pie of nuclear research dollars is going to be re-cut with different allocations. For one thing, the fusion/non-fusion balance at NIF is going to tilt away from fusion.

So, in the absence of a NIF fusion success story, this press release could be part of a campaign by other labs or other experiments to press their own research agenda for fusion.

For partial background:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/science/fusion-project-fac...

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#29
Andrea Rossi's Ecat is already here: http://www.e-catworld.com/ http://youtu.be/JWoaJ5NEj-w http://youtu.be/S7lAlzMBzLQ http://youtu.be/2cOEHQmnG-I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGmgTo2Kw1U&feature=share... (CC ON unless you can understand Italian)

Francesco Celani's experiment is being in a process of replication: http://youtu.be/Q2qWgh7Gx4g http://youtu.be/gHpYuUykWw0 http://youtu.be/qc5RoGg6n8E http://youtu.be/HN4VK82Mngc

Please, please - at least watch this video: http://youtu.be/26k3Cz3wW-8 -> This is a great initiative.

Folks, the clean controllable energy source out of LENR process is almost here. Please go through my links with an open mind and consider sharing them with your family friends and colleagues...

Re: Fusion power could arrive sooner than expected

#30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clean, yes. By any measure, cleaner than what else is out there. Already a fission nuclear power plant will produce less leakage of radioactivity into the environment than many coal plants, fusion drops that level several orders of magnitude more. First off, no fission products, which are typically the most dangerous radioactive waste from fission reactors. Second, the materials used in the reactors don't have the sa…

^ -intact- fission nuclear power plant ^ should ^ might ^ dramatically greater engineering constraints than fission reactors ^ (if you exclude engineering and manufacturing and plant construction costs) Sorry for the highlighter attack, but fusion still means building extraordinarily complex and expensive reactors that are going to have one hell of a carbon footprint and shed tons of radioactive waste in normal opera…

This is just plain FUD with no backing in reality.

Let me make it as clear as possible. Fusion energy is fundamentally safer and cleaner than fission energy, period. Firstly, it is simply not physically possible for fusion energy to generate even a tenth as much of the radioactive waste as an equivalent fission power plant. Secondly, it is not possible to have a dangerous power excursion at a fusion plant. When a fusion plant malfunctions it doesn't experience a runaway reaction, it stops working. If a fusion plant experiences some sort of catastrophic structural failure everything stops. This is in stark contrast to fission reactors which can undergo continued fission chain-reactions even if, and perhaps especially if, the reactor vessel is disrupted and the fuel melts down and also produce fission byproduct isotopes which continue to generate enough heat after the fission reactions have stopped to melt the reactor core if it is not continuously cooled.

Also, there is little evidence that the construction of a fusion reactor would entail a higher energy-usage footprint than a fission reactor, and the lack of a need for massive reinforced concrete structures in a fusion reactor tends to argue that the footprint would be rather less.

Let's roll it forward back to: undoubtedly cleaner if it can be made to work.

Post reply on HN