Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

431–440 of 915 posts

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#431

Post by asciimov »

class3shock wrote: post #237

The F-150 is in one of the markets I think ev's will take over first (small commercial vehicles) but it just was not the right vehicle to start with. To expensive, even when the tax incentives were still a thing, and Ford suffers from having corrupt dealers taking a large cut on top of that. So you are selling to either the top 5% or bigger businesses. If you are a top 5% buying this you want it to tow your expensive…

Maybe for city truck drivers.

For those that don't drive in town, noting beats gas or diesel.

Companies need to build a stepping stone truck. Dino-powered generator on an electric platform. Get most of the upside to electric performance, while getting the speed gas refilling.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#432

Post by cyberax »

silisili wrote: post #196
cyberax wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try this map: https://supercharge.info/map , it has a feature called "range circles". If you set it to 50 miles, you'll see that most of the country is well within 50 miles of the nearest supercharger. Including almost all of Texas. At 100 miles of range, you only have a couple of blank spots. With third party chargers, there's really only one blank spot in Montana. At this point, the range is already a solved proble…

So if I have a vehicle with let's say 250 miles of range, you want me to let it get to 100 miles at least left to drive 100 miles to the charger, then drive 100 miles back, leaving me with 50 miles of range until I have to do it again? I'm not really against electric anything, but not following the logic of the examples in this comment.

No. You normally don't charge at fast chargers at all. Instead, you start your trip with a 100% charge from home charging.

Then after 3-4 hours of driving (200 miles with towing) you stop for 20 minutes to charge to 80% and continue on your journey.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#433

Post by tooltalk »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #403
tooltalk wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't like posting a long comment, but re-posting a high-level chronological view of the problems past 15 years: 1) forced technology transfer/IP theft -- all foreign automakers/EV battery producers forced to give up IP to access China's market (and subsidies). This was litigated before the WTO by the EU in 2018 (see WT/DS549): Hybrid in a Trade Squeeze, Keith Bradsher, Sept 5, 2011, NYT ... The Chinese government is…

1) I'm unsure if that's more anti or pro market to be honest. 2,3) Okay, yes, half-separating China from the rest of the world is anti-market. But then they did a lot inside the country that was pro-market. With a population of over a billion, I don't consider that picking winners. 4) That's obnoxious of them but doesn't really affect what I was saying. subsidies) I was unaware of extensions, and I thought the supply…

1) anti-market. China was likewise taken to the WTO in 2018 and agreed to end their restriction on market access/forced tech transfer, implemented in 2020/2021. Tesla is however still the only foreign automaker operating without a forced JV to this date.

2) restricting market access (and subsidies) to foreign automakers isn't exactly pro-market -- especially to those who were already in China and manufacturing products that local "champions" weren't able to mass-produce. All domestic, foreign Automakers forced to source inferior, yet also costlier, batteries. ie, anti-market.

3) demonstrates Chinese consumers wanted GM Velites with LG, but their choice was denied. Limiting 1.5B consumers' choice in the name of promoting national "champions"? anti-consumer and anti-market. Definitely picking winners and loser, or foreign over domestic.

4) just another example of arbitrary safety regulation restricting market access to foreign companies. ie, anti-market.

re: subsidies. China's EV subsidies have been around since 2009; renewed/extended every 2-4 years. That's also in addition to provisional subsidies thrown around time to time, eg, ICE-to-EV conversion subsidies between May-Dec 2024 to prop up slowing EV sales.

EU is quite silly with countervailing measures against China's dumping/anti-subsidies. Despite 100+ ACTIVE counter measures, the EU Commission still think the targeted approach against China's anti-market/mercantile practices can work. The EU should also consider imposing country-specific tariff rate of 100%, akin to Biden's tariff.

China's export ban against Sweden has shown that their NEV initiatives aren't really aimed at addressing environmental problem or benefiting their population.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#434

Post by qdog »

SoftTalker wrote: post #361
inasio wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My electrician drives an electric F-150, it's impressive how useful it is for him. The frunk carries a big box of tools, there's tons of outlets to charge his power tool batteries, he can even run a small welder

Do they sell them in "work truck" trim? (Bench seat, vinyl upholstery, rubber floor, minimal options)?

I don't think so, not like it was once upon a time. I had a manual 6-cylinder I bought in about 2002 for around $14000, no leather, 2wd extended cab. That's like $25k in today's dollars according to Google. If they made a basic truck for even $40k as EV it might sell a lot better, but I am pretty sure they are all about selling 60k+ trucks for profit.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#435

Post by vel0city »

sroerick wrote: post #319
harpiaharpyja wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those people. What is a work truck used for?

Other replies here have covered 'work truck' better than anything I'd come up with but I'll also add that some of the reasons people purchase trucks is: - To be able to help your friends move. - To be able to purchase supplies and move big things over long distances. - If you raise horses, you have to have a truck to pull your trailer. - If you own a tow behind or fifth wheel, you have to have a truck to pull it. - I…

Ive helped my friends move many times. We just rented a uhaul and did it in way fewer trips (one, generally). If we did the same in a regular pickup it would have been a lot more work and a lot more time just to "save" $50 or so.

The vast majority of people don't have horses.

The vast majority of people don't have a fifth wheel.

I've tossed canoes on top of a focus hatchback. You don't need a truck to go canoeing. A canoe is like 50lbs, you don't need a few tons of towing capacity to carry a canoe. I've also gone camping in small cars. Get this, I've gone camping with just what I've carried in person for many miles! You don't need a few tons of towing to go camping.

I comfortably carry multiple kids and a spouse in vehicles other than a pickup truck. In fact, other vehicles have generally been comfier and easier. In the minivan the little kids can easily get in their seats and buckle up on their own. In the truck I had as a rental, there was practically no chance they had to climb in on their own, much less open the doors.

And yet trucks make up the majority of the most sold vehicles in the US.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#436

Post by mattmaroon »

hypercube33 wrote: post #275
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90% of F-150s are daily driver grocery-getters. That was the target for the Lightning, not truck stuff.

Meanwhile Chevy has a 400 mile range, unknown but more than the 100 mile range the lightning has for towing and is a work truck at about 70k or something street price last I saw. Its compelling, where the lightning is not.

The Silverado EV does have a big battery, but for actual real world use you’re keeping it within a band of about 60% (20-80) so 400 is really 240 with an emergency reserve. (This is common to all EVs).

You lose about half your range towing so you’re still going to drive two hours, stop for 30-45 minutes, repeat.

So it’s still far from compelling for anyone towing or doing truck stuff.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#437

Post by SoftTalker »

vel0city wrote: post #418
SoftTalker wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, a truck can be used like a car. But a car cannot be used like a truck. If you need to haul 4x8 sheets of plywood or drywall, dimensional lumber, piping, ladders, etc a truck (or work van) is pretty much it. If I could only afford one car it would be a truck.

I (and practically most people) are rarely to never carrying stacks of full sheets of drywall. Having that be the basis of your needs for a car is absurd for most people. Even then, my minivan can pack some pretty long and pretty large things inside. Meanwhile it's got a better turning radius than most trucks, it has way better visibility, it's far less pedestrian unfriendly, it's got an easier loading height, slidin…

Those were some examples, not an exhaustive list. What about hauling a load of mulch or topsoil, you're not doing that in your nice minivan. Or a bed-load of tree limbs and cut brush? I do that a few times a year. Hauling furniture, firewood, lawn mowers, trash. An open truck bed is the most flexible configuration in my experience. Of course it's not perfect for everything.

A utility trailer could do a lot of that too, if you have a suitable tow vehicle. Sometimes the extra space taken by a trailer is inconvenient.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#438

Post by mattmaroon »

dpark wrote: post #397
craftkiller wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are suggesting that most F-150s are not purchased for real truck work like hauling stuff. Instead, they are purchased by people who use them exclusively to drive on paved roads, in towns/cities, mostly carrying passengers instead of large cargo. Therefore the concern about going off-road to remote locations isn't a real concern for this market.

It’s a real concern in the sense that a lot of them care about the capability. Objectively a Ford F-150 is the wrong vehicle for what 90% of its buyers need. But it’s an aspirational purchase. It can go off-road. It can haul a boat. It can haul a bed full of gravel. It doesn’t matter for these purchasers that they rarely if ever actually do any of this.

Yeah but you buy a truck and all of a sudden you have a lot of friends.

I might not move furniture regularly, but it’s reeeeal nice to be able to do so when I need to. My dishwasher broke on Christmas Eve when I was hosting so I went to the store and got another and installed it within an hour. Not doing that with my Subaru.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#439

Post by cyberax »

WalterBright wrote: post #204
cyberax wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try this map: https://supercharge.info/map , it has a feature called "range circles". If you set it to 50 miles, you'll see that most of the country is well within 50 miles of the nearest supercharger. Including almost all of Texas. At 100 miles of range, you only have a couple of blank spots. With third party chargers, there's really only one blank spot in Montana. At this point, the range is already a solved proble…

The US isn't flat. Range can vary considerably with climbing into the mountain passes, or in cold weather.

F150 has a 130kWh battery, so heating is not an issue. Height changes are also not a problem. There are very few areas with large altitude changes, and even fewer ones that you'll likely need to pass through regularly.

This leaves mostly mountain passes around the Sierra mountains. And by some strange coincidence, they have plenty of superchargers in the vicinity.

The rest of the country can be, to the first order, considered flat. E.g. elevation change between Charlotte and Charleston is mere 300 meters.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#440

Post by ericd »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #421
dalyons wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that the rivian R1? Incredibly capable off-road. One of a small number of stock model cars to complete the Rubicon trail

The Rivian has pretty limited range. The Scout looks promising though. People out in the ranch country, oil patch, some mining areas, etc often want a reliable 600-ish miles unloaded. That’s why extended fuel tanks are a common option. Even without an extended fuel tank, you can often achieve that with an ICE and a jerry can. EVs have great potential as 4WD off-road vehicles. In a lot of ways they are more naturally…

I guess you could strap a few kw generator in the bed with some jerry cans as backup. Would take longer, but if by loiter time you mean time out in the field where you’re not moving, then maybe that’d work. Would be cool if there was the equivalent of siphoning gas from one to another.

Is there electric infrastructure in the places you’re describing? If so, should be really easy to throw down some moderate-speed L2 chargers in various parts as a last resort. They’re incredibly cheap and don’t need much maintenance.

Post reply on HN