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Umbrel – Personal Cloud

umbrel.com

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Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you wish to make an [operating system] from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

It's just weird that I couldn't find any info on which kernel they use. Linux seems the obvious choice for the task (most internet facing servers run Linux after all), but my (admittedly very poor) understanding of the GNU licence is that derivative works also needs to be published under the GNU licence? And they're using a different licence.. So.... BSD?

You misunderstand how licensing works. They can build an entirely closed source OS around the Linux kernel if they want. The only thing they'd have to publish is the changes to the kernel itself. I don't see why they'd need to modify the kernel so they'd have to publish absolutely nothing!

But to answer your question, umbrelOS is debian. You're right that they don't advertise that fact anywhere (that I've seen). They use rugpi to build a preconfigured image that includes their changes and their software. All the details are indeed public and open, if you know what you're looking for:

https://github.com/getumbrel/umbrel/tree/master/packages/os

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you wish to make an [operating system] from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

It's just weird that I couldn't find any info on which kernel they use. Linux seems the obvious choice for the task (most internet facing servers run Linux after all), but my (admittedly very poor) understanding of the GNU licence is that derivative works also needs to be published under the GNU licence? And they're using a different licence.. So.... BSD?

[deleted]

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#53
post #47

This looks really well done. The software is both well-designed (from UX / UI pov) AND it's OSS AND it's just an SSD / NAS underneath it all, I think this kind of thing is a welcome addition to the market.

The entire UI seems lifted from icloud and osx. I can't even tell the difference

Personally I'm cool with that. Originality is overrated. Do whatever works.

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#55
post #51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just weird that I couldn't find any info on which kernel they use. Linux seems the obvious choice for the task (most internet facing servers run Linux after all), but my (admittedly very poor) understanding of the GNU licence is that derivative works also needs to be published under the GNU licence? And they're using a different licence.. So.... BSD?

You misunderstand how licensing works. They can build an entirely closed source OS around the Linux kernel if they want. The only thing they'd have to publish is the changes to the kernel itself. I don't see why they'd need to modify the kernel so they'd have to publish absolutely nothing! But to answer your question, umbrelOS is debian. You're right that they don't advertise that fact anywhere (that I've seen). They…

Ah there we go! Thanks!

That also answers the questions some other commenters have had elsewhere in this thread, about what happens to the hardware if the company fails. Now we know: it's Debian. Apt will remain.

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#56
post #6

Looks like they're selling an N150 based "Mini PC" for $500. You can get a very similar 16GB RAM, 1TB storage Minipc in the same form factor from Amazon for around $260 so looks like you're paying almost twice the price for the NAS-type software?

Seconded I quite like this business model of sharing open source software and selling hardware with software pre-installed. Seems like best of both worlds to serve everyone with a tidy profit.

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#57
post #23

This is a hard problem. Offering autonomy and ownership of data to non-techy people is HARD. Although I'm not at all convinced Umbrel is the right answer, they seem to be on the right track. Can they empower regular people to own their data without causing havoc down the road if they run out of money and go out of business? I'm sceptical, but I do respect them for trying to tackle this head on. But having skimmed the…

>I do believe this is a growing market, giving people who are fed up with BigTech

Most people I interact with don't even think about "Big Tech" in this way. They don't question iCloud storage, Google Drive or Google Workspace, Microsoft OneDrive etc.

They do sometimes get upset about right to repair, AI, and sometimes I hear about net neutrality or how Google search sucks, or how Facebook is privacy invasive.

To reiterate though, the core services like a product like this would replace - Google Drive, iCloud Drive, OneDrive etc. - that is not on the radar. Let alone having functional seamless replacements for email or calendar or contacts etc.

These are people adept at using technology too, there simply is no reason to invest in these types of products to them.

The reason these companies struggle is because mass market doesn't care about this enough first and foremost. They aren't seamless drop in replacements.

They don't handle my phone backups, for example, wirelessly and seamlessly. They don't offer seamless contact sharing, photo sharing and sometimes even file sharing is so clunky compared to a Google Drive link, or an iCloud download link.

How do they handle expiry on a link address for said share?

At best, what you have here is an on premise redundant storage drive and little else. It doesn't have the seamless features to do what the other services do. Even if its on the spec sheet, the experience isn't seamless enough. This is the same problem Nextcloud has been trying to solve for some time.

I think among technologists, the market for this is growing, but thats been the case for some time, its simply reaching more and more of us. This being a knock out commercial success where every 3rd person you know is buying something like this? That isn't happening in the foreseeable future.

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#58

A decade of “personal cloud box” attempts has shown that the hard part isn’t the hardware, it’s the long-term social contract. Synology/WD/My Cloud/etc all eventually hit the same wall: once the company pivots or dies, you’re left with a sealed brick that you don’t fully control, holding the most irreplaceable thing you own: your data. If you’re going to charge an Apple-like premium on commodity mini-PC hardware, you…

Don't forget the user experience needs to be seamless. We bubble ourselves to this as tech fluent folks on HN, but the seamless quality needs to be on par or better with Google Drive, iCloud drive, Google / iCloud Photos etc.

Ability to share, good default security, and seamless integration with the things people care about.

If this device can't automatically backup a phone wirelessly and without my interaction, it will be a poor proposition to most people.

We would all have been better off fiercely advocating for open protocols for all this stuff first (forced interop), but technologists have not wanted to wade into that in a sustained, en masse way

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#59
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, isn't this running an open-source OS? The header has a link to a github with a non-commercial license[0]. If so, couldn't you just use the OS on non-premium-priced mini-PC hardware and never have to worry about them locking you out of your box? I guess maybe it's concerning if you're being forced to update by the OS? I've never actually run a system like that, but was considering umbrel OS (didn't actually kno…

A non-commercial license prevents it from being open-source, and I think already constitutes extremely clear communication about what will happen to users when Umbrel goes bankrupt: they will be stranded, because the license doesn't allow another company to step up and take over maintenance the way an open-source license would.

these companies - if they are so afraid of an OSI approved license - should put certain conditions into their that trigger when they go out of business and the IP gets released

Re: Umbrel – Personal Cloud

#60
I'd really love to see an off the shelf distributed FS server in a NUC form factor that you plug in and is largely self-managed. Automatic atomic updates, QR codes to add a server to your swarm, manage it through a browser, client side encryption so a compromised server doesn't mean data exposure. If you want to get fancy, you could have user quotas so you and all your friends set up a single swarm with shared storage and you'd have a very distributed cloud. Optionally add a hetzner instance to the swarm.
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