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Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

nytimes.com

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Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#51

Post by thrwaway55 »

shoobiedoo wrote: post #30
thrwaway55 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you write in cursive? If you care about WPM key board toasts it. If you care about handwritten your receiver cares they got your letter at all not that it's cursive or not. Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper.

okay, but if you care about recall and activating regions of the brain that create a better understanding of what you're learning, handwriting wins according to research.

I've found drilling notes via method of loci of visualized flashcards/facts for this to be superior for myself which I always sourced from typed notes. Not really familiar with the research that cursive would improve over it.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#52

Post by esafak »

gambiting wrote: post #47
esafak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People write in cursive the same way a doctor writes a prescription.

Not sure what that means. As in, badly? Dozens of times a day? The same things over and over again? And who are the "people"? And again, that doesn't really answer my question - if you don't write in cursive, how do you write?

I mean it is illegible and ugly, so why bother?

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#53

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

msteffen wrote: post #48
brightball wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analog clocks are interesting in that they exercise your brain when you read them. You have to do calculation (what is the number system for each hand), spatial reasoning (where is each hand) and categorization (what is each hand). There’s a program called Arrowsmith that has a summer program called the Cognitive Intensive Program. It’s basically 3-4 hours a day of speed reading analog clock for 7 weeks. You start ou…

This one? https://www.arrowsmith.ca/cip-arrowsmith-school

Just $6k to change your life by speed reading clocks for 3 hours a day for two months...

Needless to say this trips my crank/cult smell meter.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#54

Post by techblueberry »

ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #9
robcohen wrote: post #6

It just seems to me that the entire purpose of school is not clear. What precisely is the purpose of "English" class? What? To read and speak English? Ok, then why can't kids test out of it most of the time? Is the purpose to be knowledgeable about a canon of literature? Why can't people test against that? The truth is that pedagogy and instruction is just a lazy way of providing childcare. So who cares what they do…

The purpose of school is a mix between providing childcare, and making sure most of society have a largely overlapping common upbringing experience. We hear that we encourage diversity - but only of superficial stuff like sexual orientation or skin color. We don't want people that think too differently. This is why I, despite my deep appreciation for the pursuit of knowledge and having spent a significant chunk of my…

I’m curious - do you think you’re an independent thinker? Do you think it’s a competitive advantage? What does thinking differently mean? It seems like a thing people say because it sounds good without really interrogating it.

I objectively find myself to be an independent thinker, and I mostly find it distracting. I could be much more functional to society/work/relationships if I spent more time thinking about the kinds of things other people think about, in the way they think about them.

I observe most of the most successful people in society, are successful _because_ they have mainstream thought patterns, people look up to them because they understand them, and they develop solutions that are in line with what most people need/want/desire.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#55

Post by refibrillator »

brightball wrote: post #21
adfm wrote: post #8

I’ve noticed some of these kids can’t tell time on analog clocks nor read cursive handwriting.

Analog clocks are interesting in that they exercise your brain when you read them. You have to do calculation (what is the number system for each hand), spatial reasoning (where is each hand) and categorization (what is each hand). There’s a program called Arrowsmith that has a summer program called the Cognitive Intensive Program. It’s basically 3-4 hours a day of speed reading analog clock for 7 weeks. You start ou…

This is hilarious, I don’t even want to know if it’s legit.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#56

Post by thrwaway55 »

gambiting wrote: post #22
thrwaway55 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you write in cursive? If you care about WPM key board toasts it. If you care about handwritten your receiver cares they got your letter at all not that it's cursive or not. Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper.

>>Why would you write in cursive? I'm confused. How do you write if not in cursive? Do you just write in block capitals? With each letter on its own? Do you just not hand write anymore? >>Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper. But....It still is? Without using some kind of machine of course.

I'll be honest I actually prefer my words to be lasting and have weight so I prefer block letters carved into lead which doesn't benefit much from cursive

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#57

Post by lurk2 »

lurk2 wrote: post #41
robcohen wrote: post #6

It just seems to me that the entire purpose of school is not clear. What precisely is the purpose of "English" class? What? To read and speak English? Ok, then why can't kids test out of it most of the time? Is the purpose to be knowledgeable about a canon of literature? Why can't people test against that? The truth is that pedagogy and instruction is just a lazy way of providing childcare. So who cares what they do…

> Why can't people test against that? Most school districts do allow students to test out of classes and get placed at higher grade levels. The majority of people would never have tested above grade level. Your presence here means that you likely would have. > The truth is that pedagogy and instruction is just a lazy way of providing childcare. Providing every child with an education has been pedestrian in the develo…

Another user deleted their comment:

> The purpose of English class was to provide a field for interdisciplinary subjects. We learned how to write the standard five paragraph essay. We learned how to detect dishonest and manipulative messaging in advertising. We learned to relate themes in literature to contemporary society.

This is how I remember my English classes. We did not spend much time at all on grammar after the 9th grade. We didn’t study any classic literature besides reading a Shakespeare play every year; you had to take a separate course for that. This is also how the classes are treated in most colleges these days; you’ll get English majors who spent 4 years reading critical theory and bad contemporary novels written by friends of the department head, rather than anything with serious cultural cachet.

This is the only serious criticism of the subject, in my opinion; the applications that grammar has in logical reasoning, composition, interpretation, and foreign language acquisition are too significant to shrug off, but it isn’t being taught particularly rigorously anymore.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#58

Post by frompdx »

When I was in high-school 20 plus years ago excerpt based reading assignments were fairly common in non-honors/advanced placement classes. Except there were whole textbooks full of excerpt based assignments instead of computer software for this purpose. Anecdotally I took honors and AP English and those classes destroyed my desire to read for years. I only read a few of the assigned books cover to cover because they were either dreadfully boring or the expectations for how quickly we should read them were more than I, a very average student, could manage. Usually some combination of both. Rather than relying on cliffnotes and sparknotes alone I would typically read the first chapter, the last chapter, and then some chapter in the middle so I was prepared for tests and discussions.

At the end of the day the AP exams didn't test you on your knowledge of The Scarlet Letter or The Great Gatsby. The exam tested you on your ability to read an excerpt and answer questions about it as well as your ability to write a multi-paragraph essay from a prompt while a proctor wearing the most hideous smelling blackberry perfume bathed you in an olfactory assault every time they walked by. In-classroom writing assignments were the most effective way to prepare and we did them frequently. As a reward for doing well you got to skip a couple of 100 level English credits in college.

Sure there are lots of brainrot distractions available to kids today, but it feels like the education system never takes a moment to look inward and acknowledge that The Scarlet Letter and My Antonia are dreadfully boring reads. It took me three tries to finish 1984 because the beginning is such a slog. It is strange to say kids aren't interested in reading (from the article) when a lot of the subject matter is objectively dull. Four of the six books in the article header are books I don't even want to think about let alone read.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#59

Post by bgbntty2 »

stevewodil wrote: post #4

I don’t know if this matters much. When I was in school it was rare to actually read a book assignment anyways, and I’m sure with LLMs now it’s less. I’ve started to have a positive association with reading only in the last few years, I wish schools didn’t force books onto children and make them think they hate reading for their whole lives.

I think school ruined fiction books for me. I had to read long boring books about stories that didn't interest me, with useless sentences describing what the scene looked like or what someone had for dinner. Most of the stories and themes were outdated and didn't have enough context to make them understandable. Some books even used outdated words and phrases.

Maybe if I wasn't forced to read a book in an outdated language about some Christian farmer 300 years ago while I was not in school, and if I could access a succinct version 1/10th of the length of the book, I'd read it.

Maybe if I wasn't asked to describe minor details to prove I read the book, I'd actually focus on the story and not on every irrelevant detail.

Maybe if my teacher didn't force their religious holier-than-thou attitude and allowed us to form our own opinions, I'd be more engaged.

What school taught me was how to get away with not reading the books. I skimmed books by skipping tens of pages at a time or asked friends for the TL;DR or just got an F.

Now I have a feeling of uneasiness and dread when I try to read fiction for fun. So I don't.

Most 300 page fiction books I had to read could've easily been condensed to 30 pages without any loss of information.

Being forced to read and memorize poetry was the absolute shit. A lot of people won't care about poetry no matter how hard you try to force them to like it. And half of it was propaganda - how $nation survived $struggle, how $nation is so great or beautiful or how $hero did $ethical_thing.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#60

Post by kevinsync »

gambiting wrote: post #22
thrwaway55 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you write in cursive? If you care about WPM key board toasts it. If you care about handwritten your receiver cares they got your letter at all not that it's cursive or not. Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper.

>>Why would you write in cursive? I'm confused. How do you write if not in cursive? Do you just write in block capitals? With each letter on its own? Do you just not hand write anymore? >>Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper. But....It still is? Without using some kind of machine of course.

I'm a person who mostly types, writes tons of code, but also is a graphic designer, and I also have pitiful penmanship. I can write regular sans-serif (all caps or properly capitalized), as well as cursive, but ultimately the concept of fonts make more sense to me than anything else in terms of an expression of letters and typography.

There are a million ways to articulate a glyph, from thick to thin, clear to murky, big, small, harsh, soft, whatever. Some people still use typewriters or typeset a printing press. Others use spray paint or marker.

End of the day for me it's just about communication and expression and aesthetic and clarity (or sometimes intentional LACK of visual clarity in honor of a style), not technique or medium. I dunno.

I do think every bozo should be able to pick up a pen and make his mark, and I think humans should practice the art of crafting a sentence and turning a phrase, but I really don't focus on the how, and more on the what, the message.

Even the Zodiac Killer had a unique and bizarre style with his handwriting and cipher LOL can you imagine if it was just bog-standard 5th grade cursive?

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