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The Patent, Used as a Sword

nytimes.com

21–30 of 76 posts

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#21
post #16
post #2

I understand that allowing patents for algorithms is bad for innovation. What I don't understand is that people say that and then in the same breath claim that allowing patents for chemical formulas is good for innovation. In both cases, the patent holder gets a monopoly and everyone else is stuck with them as their supplier. I feel a terrible cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile these two positions.

They can't be reconciled: patents bind another human down from thinking and acting and trading with his fellow human beings. There's no way to justify that; it's blatantly immoral.

Don't be so dramatic. By and large what patents prevent is copying: taking someone's ideas and passing them off as your own. Most people consider this immoral too. Restrictions on unfair competition are literally hundreds of years old--it's not a recent invention.

E.g. one of Samsung's biggest problems in the recent patent dispute with Apple was that they were clearly blatantly copying Apple's designs.

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#22
"The suit had cost $3 million, and the financial damage was done."

This is the problem. In all other countries (except Great Britain, AFAIK) the loser pays all costs (including the public cost of the trial and the opposing party's legal fees).

The loser-pays system has three effects:

1. No frivolous lawsuits. Cost of losing is high.

2. The defending party will defend vigorously if it believes itself to be in the right.

3. It is relatively cheap to get legal insurance (almost everybody in Germany has it)

Overall this reduces lawsuits in general, stops or reduces the power of threatening legal action, and it stops or reduces the practice of throwing the equivalent of legal sh*t at the wall to see what sticks.

Edit: Spelling

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#23
If this is in fact accurate (that Apple & Google R&D spend is less than their Patent spend), it's an incredible waste of time, money and talent:

"In the smartphone industry alone, according to a Stanford University analysis, as much as $20 billion was spent on patent litigation and patent purchases in the last two years — an amount equal to eight Mars rover missions. Last year, for the first time, spending by Apple and Google on patent lawsuits and unusually big-dollar patent purchases exceeded spending on research and development of new products, according to public filings."

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#24
post #2

I understand that allowing patents for algorithms is bad for innovation. What I don't understand is that people say that and then in the same breath claim that allowing patents for chemical formulas is good for innovation. In both cases, the patent holder gets a monopoly and everyone else is stuck with them as their supplier. I feel a terrible cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile these two positions.

A patent on a molecular structure is a very specific and easily interpreted patent. Most software patents are extremely vague and open to overly broad interpretations. The potential for abuse is far, far greater.

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#25
post #17
post #12

This article briefly touches upon first to file. I think it's clear that the change to first to file will result in the greatest threat to open innovation we have ever seen in our lives. Think about it -- suddenly you will have swarms of lawyers and executives at pharmaceutical companies paying visits to research labs, and you'll have people from large software companies forwarding ideas posted on open source develop…

First-to-file does not eliminate prior art.

Prior art is a very nuanced thing. When I have a lot of money, I can have my talented legal staff persuasively argue that "many of us were doing similar things in the field at the time of this invention, and other public disclosures did not provide proof of invention, but rather an interest in similar applications," or something of that nature. Our new patent regime will be "First Inventor To File," so you just have to convince the patent examiners that the genius engineers at your LargeCo were clearly thinking about the ideas and creating the same inventions as anything else a prior art search might turn up.

You made me think about something, however. Maybe one of our solutions to this problem should be a very well organized, completely open source, "open registry." One of the other changes -- a concession, really -- that will come into place along with the new patent system will be a much-expanded definition of prior art. Now, as things currently stand it will become very easy to shoot down searches of discussion list postings and the sort as being relevant, but what if there was a true open, public registry of ideas/inventions? And moreover, what if we as a collective community encouraged ideas to go in there through social incentive; i.e., if I add a new invention to the registry that is actually awesome, people vote it up and I gain cred in the industry -- and if it's already in existence or something, others can comment/explain I'm not the genius I thought I was. You could also have some sort of a system whereby you could see inventions that are "forks" of others' ideas -- basically, a software version of the citations on a patent application.

Once we built this, and started using it, we could get the patent office (and patent offices around the world) to incorporate it into their workflow when evaluating applications. This could really help us in cutting down bogus filings, while making their job easier (music to every government employee's ears).

I know people have been making moves in this area, but perhaps it's time we get really serious about it. We seem to be better at coding things, than at lobbying, so maybe this is the way to go...

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#26
I am currently applying for a software patent.

And I am of two minds. The system sucks. It shouldn't be patentable. In fact, even if I get a patent, it won't be the determinant of success or failure; it's mostly there to make the company more attractive to investors.

On the other hand, is/ought problem. There's what I'd like the world to be. And there's what the world is.

(And yes: my lawyer is pushing me to come up with the broadest, vaguest description of my invention possible).

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#27
post #12

This article briefly touches upon first to file. I think it's clear that the change to first to file will result in the greatest threat to open innovation we have ever seen in our lives. Think about it -- suddenly you will have swarms of lawyers and executives at pharmaceutical companies paying visits to research labs, and you'll have people from large software companies forwarding ideas posted on open source develop…

First-to-file is basically meant to get rid of "interference" lawsuits.

And, in general, it's not the apocalypse you might expect because prior art can still invalidate a patent.

The USA is basically on its own with first-to-invent. Everyone else is on first-to-file. And generally speaking, it works pretty well. There are absolutely anomalies, but there are mechanisms to deal with them. The payoff is a simply abolishing a massively expensive and difficult field of litigation.

It's a lot like how the Torrens land title system dramatically increased the security of land title, while also driving out whole classes of litigation and fraud. It changed real estate, land ownership and development for the better.

(IANAL, TINLA)

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#28
Did anyone else get bugged by the following: "Patents are vitally important to protecting intellectual property"? Reading along, and WHAM, there it is out of nowhere.

It's not wrong, but it is also not true, since it is a tautology and so devoid of meaning. Patents ARE intellectual property, so the statement is a nonsensical "patents are vital to protect themselves". A circular argument.

I suspect the author is failing to distinguish between ideas and "intellectual property", and is trying to say "Patents are vitally important to protecting ideas". An idea is not intellectual property though. It is born naked and free and has no inherent attributes of property, such as limitations on its use. It is patents that attempt to convert ideas into property, and the onus should be on the patent advocate to demonstrate benefits over unadorned ideas.

It bugs me that so many "software patents are bad" articles go like this:

1. Example of why software patents are bad.

2. Unsupported assertion that patents are essential.

3. Unsupported assertion that pharmaceuticals will not be produced in the absence of patents.

4. Half-baked conclusion that something must change, but it's a scary thing to do because it might kill innovation.

Why not do it this way?

1. Start with the assumption that monopolies are bad for innovation and innovation happens best in a free-wheeling environment.

2. Example of why software patents are bad.

3. Critical examination of whether patents might have any benefit in other areas, such as pharmaceuticals.

4. Unless shown to be generally good in step 3, conclusion that patents are generally bad, with exceptions (possibly none) as identified in step 3.

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#29
post #12

This article briefly touches upon first to file. I think it's clear that the change to first to file will result in the greatest threat to open innovation we have ever seen in our lives. Think about it -- suddenly you will have swarms of lawyers and executives at pharmaceutical companies paying visits to research labs, and you'll have people from large software companies forwarding ideas posted on open source develop…

> It won't be safe to suggest ideas openly anymore. It won't be safe to talk about "what if" or "have you considered" or "someone should really." We are going to see a flood of really bad patents based on other people's ideas -- and that's exactly what our lawmakers have provided to their friends in large businesses.

That's not how first to file works. It just changes is what happens if two or more otherwise eligible people apply for the same patent. What I mean by "otherwise eligible" is that they would be entitled to the patent if there was not a conflict with another inventor claiming the same invention.

When there is a conflict (which does not happen for the vast majority of application), then first to file changes the resolution so that the winner is the first inventor to file, rather than the inventor with the earliest constructive invention date. (The constructive date is not necessarily the date you came up with the idea. If you come up with the idea, start working on reducing it to practice, but then stop for a while and then start again, your constructive invention date jumps from the date you came up with the idea to the date you resumed working on it. Each time you stop and start, your date jumps forward).

If you come up with some idea and have no intention of patenting it, you want to talk about it publicly under first to file just as much as you do under first to invent, in order to get it out there as prior art.

Re: The Patent, Used as a Sword

#30

"The suit had cost $3 million, and the financial damage was done." This is the problem. In all other countries (except Great Britain, AFAIK) the loser pays all costs (including the public cost of the trial and the opposing party's legal fees). The loser-pays system has three effects: 1. No frivolous lawsuits. Cost of losing is high. 2. The defending party will defend vigorously if it believes itself to be in the righ…

The problem with doing loser pays in the US is that in the US we use private civil litigation to handle things that would be dealt with by government regulators and agencies in other countries. For instance, we rely on civil litigation to enforce consumer protection and civil rights laws to a larger extent than others do. Loser pays in the US would discourage a lot of meritorious lawsuits from individuals against large companies, because there is always a significant risk of losing even if you have a good case--a jury can be a crapshoot.
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