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Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

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Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#271
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile unions in a consolidated market have the perverse incentive to sustain the monopoly because then the union is extracting a portion of the monopoly rents the corporation is squeezing out of consumers at the expense of the 99% of workers who don't work for that specific company. This still sounds like an improvement over the American consolidated market status quo, where the companies and shareholders retai…

> Antitrust enforcement would be great, but absent an 1880s-1910s level push, isn't going to happen. Let's do that then. > This still sounds like an improvement over the American consolidated market status quo, where the companies and shareholders retain more of the monopoly rents. Except that you then get the union lobbying to sustain the monopoly instead of eliminate it, which makes it even harder to do the thing t…

> Let's do [an 1880s-1910s level push for antitrust enforcement] then.

The last time that happened was a pre-globalized world, multiple decades of building pressure (including the passage of the Sherman Antitrust Act), and the youngest US president to ever assume office (Teddy Roosevelt).

That's a confluence of events I'm not betting on naturally replicating.

Step 1 would be passing an update to the Sherman Act through Congress that would survive the current Supreme Court.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not a great example given that the rust belt was thick with unions. And in general the US has a cost of living problem because the various levels of government keep getting captured by people who want regulations that make costs to go up because they're the ones getting the money. That makes US workers less competitive because of the corruption-induced regulatory costs, which is exactly the opposite o…

Regulation is a requirement in actual capitalist/market thought. Only fairly recently have libertarian's retconned in their 'free market requires no oversight' nonsense. I agree, we should return to Adam Smith style capitalism/markets, with his strong promotion of regulation against monopolies, corruption, and rent-seeking

> Only fairly recently have libertarian's retconned in their 'free market requires no oversight' nonsense.

You have to realize that there are people who call themselves "libertarians" who are actually plutocrats, just like there are plutocrats who call themselves "progressives", because people wouldn't agree with them if they would plainly state their actual goals. Whereas pretending to be the people who want to take you down serves the dual purposes of stealing the support of their base for your corruption and then undermining the support for the people who actually want to fix it once other people see what you're doing under their banner.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Id employees can apply for jobs while remaining employed at Id. You're writing as though Id employees must first quit their jobs before seeking a new one. And even if they do have a period of unemployment between jobs, COBRA continues to cover them for up to a year. > Every recruiter has spreadsheets of blacklisted employees If you're going to allege illegal anti-poaching agreements, you ought to provide evidence of…

> If you're going to allege illegal anti-poaching agreements, you ought to provide evidence of those claims. Yes because companies are famous for being highly law-abiding under every circumstance and every major instance of corporate fraud has been identified and properly punished at a criminal basis. C'mon man, the US is a country where wage theft is 3 times higher than all other formst of theft combined. Informal b…

So you're asking to prove a negative with respect to blacklisting?

Some factories have been caught physically locking employees in the building and not letting them leave. Can I say with certainty that this isn't happening at Id? No, but it's still not valid to baselessly assert that it is happening at Id Technologies because other instances of this behavior have been documented.

The fact that desirable jobs like game dev means employers don't have to compete as hard to attract talent. That's not infringing on game developers' rights. Game developers have the ability to work in jobs other than game dev. If they choose not to pursue those opportunities that's a choice they're making on their own initiative, not an infringement on their rights.

Workers rights like safe working environments, minimum wage, and other laws still apply to game devs.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should prevent management from destroying productive companies and prevent unions from doing it, instead of saying "what about those other guys" to justify the bad behavior of either of them. Im not justifying anyone, I'm suggesting a pragmatic, imperfect solution to a clear power imbalance. There's only one way to treat a counterpart who repeatedly defects on the iterated prisoners dilemma, and its not waiting…

> There's only one way to treat a counterpart who repeatedly defects on the iterated prisoners dilemma, and its not waiting for them to unilaterally start cooperating. Except that there isn't only one way, there are two. The first is that you keep playing with the defector and start defecting yourself, hoping that they unilaterally start cooperating. The second is that you quit playing with the defector and go play w…

Now apply your 2 options to American workers and see which one's feasible.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If one company is exploiting their workers in a competitive market, what prevents those workers from going to work for any of the other companies? Depends, is there a labor shortage or a surplus? It might be cheaper for a company to train a replacement than it is to treat employees better. If there's a labor surplus, then the employer has a lot of power of the situation. > Slavery is a government regulation that sa…

> Depends, is there a labor shortage or a surplus? That determines things like wages. It doesn't allow companies to do things like cause $1000 in damage to you in order to save $10, because then they'd have to pay you $1000 more than the company that isn't doing that or you'd still go work there instead. Also, if there is a labor surplus then how is a union going to do any good? The company would just let them go on…

> That determines things like wages.

How a worker is treated is part of wages. It has a very real impact on the jobs people take. If you are, for example expected to work 60h weeks vs 40h weeks you take the 60h company if nobody else is hiring.

> Also, if there is a labor surplus then how is a union going to do any good? The company would just let them go on strike and hire replacements.

Scabs crossing picket lines have a real hard time. And, historically, unions have banded together to boycott employers who hire scabs.

> That seems to have the word "law" in it.

Law isn't the same thing as a regulation. Anyone that proposes a "free market" is looking at a market determined by contract law.

Or do you think there's some other way to operate a market that doesn't ultimately need a 3rd party to take disputes to?

> which is why there are contracts the government shouldn't enforce.

I agree. My points were more digs at free market absolutism.

> Libertarian ideology assumes that monopolies form as a result of government rules.

No it doesn't. That's silly. You can read up on any libertarian thinker and they'll all happily argue that monopolies actually aren't bad things. A business that can capture a market through scale efficiencies will always be argued as a good thing from the libertarian perspective.

> could force everyone into a contract to form a dictatorial government, which is anathema to the entire ideology.

I agree with your conclusion, but disagree with how you assess it as applying to libertarianism. A fundamental of anarchist-capitalist libertarian thinking is that the only role of government is contract enforcement. They see no problem with a private entity ending up with a monopoly of force so long as everyone agrees to the contracts they enter. That's why you can read about libertarians that support the notion of a company having it's own militia.

I mean, heck, the entire point of Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" was how government fails and how society would be much better off if all the smart people got together and formed their own private government in the wilderness (But don't call it government, call it a community organization or whatever). Ironically enough, the main actions of the protagonists was doing a general strike.

> How is there an inherent power imbalance in a competitive market?

As explained earlier, a market can be competitive with either a labor surplus or a labor shortage.

And even with a labor shortage, businesses can collude to undermine worker rights. It becomes harder with a wide market to do that, but not impossible. Real pages is such an example of a pretty wide and competitive market colluding to raise rent prices outside of market forces.

You can't just "go to a different employer" if they all treat employees the same way.

There's also simply a cost in switching jobs. It takes time to search for a new job and with an abusive employer that maybe hard to come by. For example, how do you do a job interview if your employer demands you are there from 9-5 every weekday?

That's the imbalance.

> The ultimate harm is that it makes the industry's products worse

Actually no. You can look up the reasons unions strike and it might surprise you to know it's not always about just getting more money for the union members.

For example, the USC [1] has done strikes specifically because medical facilities are under-staffing on nurses. They want more nurses to improve patient safety.

Money is a part of union negotiations, for sure, but often it's also just about making sure union members aren't overworked.

[1] https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/usc-nurses-hold-t...

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#276
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Antitrust enforcement would be great, but absent an 1880s-1910s level push, isn't going to happen. Let's do that then. > This still sounds like an improvement over the American consolidated market status quo, where the companies and shareholders retain more of the monopoly rents. Except that you then get the union lobbying to sustain the monopoly instead of eliminate it, which makes it even harder to do the thing t…

> Let's do [an 1880s-1910s level push for antitrust enforcement] then. The last time that happened was a pre-globalized world, multiple decades of building pressure (including the passage of the Sherman Antitrust Act), and the youngest US president to ever assume office (Teddy Roosevelt). That's a confluence of events I'm not betting on naturally replicating. Step 1 would be passing an update to the Sherman Act throu…

> Step 1 would be passing an update to the Sherman Act through Congress that would survive the current Supreme Court.

The nice thing about antitrust laws is that they're right in the core of the interstate commerce clause, so it's a real stretch to find them unconstitutional and in practice that hasn't been what has happened. Instead, because the Sherman Act is extremely broad but not very detailed, they've just been narrowly interpreting it. Which wouldn't work if you would pass something that explicitly spelled out some of the things. Like just go make a list of all the existing antitrust cases where something bad was found not to be a violation and make a line in the new law that explicitly calls out that one as "yes it is". Which deletes all the precedents anyone could use to claim that their bad behavior is allowed, since Congress just explicitly said that it isn't.

Another great improvement would be to allow anyone to sue for antitrust violations instead of requiring the government prosecutor to do it.

It would also help to get some bipartisanship happening. The current Court has a conservative majority but you only need to convince two out of six, and some of them are more partisan than others, which actually gives you two ways to win. One, you make a good argument and convince the reasonable ones. Two, you stir up the conservative base against some California corporations. Probably easier to do the next time there is a Democratic administration because then they'll start kowtowing to the new administration instead of Trump and thereby anger the conservatives again.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#277
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage HN readers to read your username before replying to this comment. And also to consider why self-identifying capitalists like yourself might want a large cheap labor pool of people who can be deported if they complain about their working conditions. For what it’s worth, I think it should be very easy to become an American citizen. I think these companies benefit from that not being the case. They’d call IC…

The an_cap position on immigration is open borders which is the opposite of "people who can be deported if they complain about their working conditions". Feel free to check the comment history.

Take it up with your fellow “caps” then, they’re the ones that support expanding this category of workers that have fewer political rights. The labor unions clearly only about immigration issues insofar as it relates to trying to weaken labor laws.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#278
post #116
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers having to pay more than they'd prefer to pay for a given type of work/provide better working conditions does not imply "unfair exploitation" of the company by the union, either. It's just a market reaching equilibrium. It's always weird how employees are forever to be expected to be at the mercy of market forces much greater than they are, while employers have to be shielded from them.

> It's just a market reaching equilibrium. It's always weird how employees are forever to be expected to be at the mercy of market forces much greater than they are, while employers have to be shielded from them. It's not a market, at all. It's only possible because of federal law that prevents a business from firing employees for unionizing. If it were a market, the business would have to choose to keep unionzed wor…

That argument is bullshit, and I'll tell you why.

An employer can't fire people for unionizing, but there's no law that requires them to accept a union's negotiating demands... Or prevents them from bringing in scabs if the union chooses to strike without pay.

The existence of a union by itself doesn't do anything.

The only power that a union actually has is not showing up to work. And when the union doesn't show up to work, the employer is free to hire someone else to do the work. It's wild to comparing people not showing up to work because an employment agreement hasn't been reached to 'being held hostage'.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#279
post #195
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Union is a business too - and it's product is the labor of it's members. Always follow the money - there's no free lunch. The Union negotiates incremental raises not because it is righteous and just - no, it negotiates incremental raises because the Union wants more revenue. Sometimes the goals of a Union and it's members align - but often they do not. Unions get a lot of free positive PR, but in modern times the…

> We used to have 12-16+ hour workdays, no days off, etc. None of that is true anymore - the great battles have been fought and won, and nobody is going back. The 8 hour workday is not guaranteed to office workers anymore. See HN discussion of 996: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45149049

Nobody is seriously working 996, unless they choose to.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#280

Good for them. During economic downturns, when fewer resources are available for redistribution, collective action across population groups can help address worsening power imbalances.

Wrong, collective action doesn’t change anything. It simply interchanges who gets poorer.

Easy counterexample: safety. Unions have historically been on the forefront of safety improvements. Not having workers mutilated or killed -> increased wealth for all. That's not a zero-sum game.

And if you think this doesn't matter for game programmers, look at how many overworked people in the past few years have gotten in car crashes while driving home. Fatigue kills.

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