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Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

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Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#11

Post by simion314 »

rzerowan wrote: post #4

Paradoxically this is one of those features/requirements that i feel should be on the end-user-device with zero knowledge proof. It would make sense to have the enduser verification ondevice with a simple reply to any online property : Passed age verification/or not. Otherwise the centralization and eventual leak of this data is a can of worms in waiting.

Exactly, on my Play Station I setup for my son I enter his real birthday, then Sony knows what can he do in the Store or chat etc. So we could have the big tech Apple, Google, Microsoft, Canonical ensure to make an idiot prof setup screen and the parent is responsible to set the age of the birthday of the child if they give a device to them . Then the store can be filtered and the browser can have a standard way of adding in the headers an age range or something.

Big tech did not want to cooperate to do this for some weird reason so now we get a much more complicated solution.

Yes I know that if your kid uses a live USB stick he could watch porn on his laptop but IMO is much easier for such a smart kid to find a website that does not respect the browser headers and torrent adult content.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#12

Post by vermon »

rzerowan wrote: post #4

Paradoxically this is one of those features/requirements that i feel should be on the end-user-device with zero knowledge proof. It would make sense to have the enduser verification ondevice with a simple reply to any online property : Passed age verification/or not. Otherwise the centralization and eventual leak of this data is a can of worms in waiting.

EU implementation of age verification is actually base don zero knowledge proofs https://ageverification.dev/

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#14

Post by danaris »

rzerowan wrote: post #4

Paradoxically this is one of those features/requirements that i feel should be on the end-user-device with zero knowledge proof. It would make sense to have the enduser verification ondevice with a simple reply to any online property : Passed age verification/or not. Otherwise the centralization and eventual leak of this data is a can of worms in waiting.

Any on-device solution that simply sends back a yes/no result as you describe is guaranteed to have one of two problems:

1) It is vulnerable to modifications and hacks on the local device that get it to send back a "yes" result without actually verifying anything

OR

2) It requires the device to use some kind of closed, proprietary system that allows the service to guarantee that #1 cannot happen

Now, in general, the tech world is pretty happy to accept #2, but many of the people around here would object to it on very reasonable grounds.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#15

Post by knollimar »

danaris wrote: post #14
rzerowan wrote: post #4

Paradoxically this is one of those features/requirements that i feel should be on the end-user-device with zero knowledge proof. It would make sense to have the enduser verification ondevice with a simple reply to any online property : Passed age verification/or not. Otherwise the centralization and eventual leak of this data is a can of worms in waiting.

Any on-device solution that simply sends back a yes/no result as you describe is guaranteed to have one of two problems: 1) It is vulnerable to modifications and hacks on the local device that get it to send back a "yes" result without actually verifying anything OR 2) It requires the device to use some kind of closed, proprietary system that allows the service to guarantee that #1 cannot happen Now, in general, the…

I don't want it in my hardware but I'd buy an accessory that does this.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#16

Post by minusLik »

jagoff wrote: post #2

It's not about age verification and it never was, that is a distraction at best and a delusion at worst. This is about tying your real name to all of your online activities, and about getting the current generation of children used to it and accepting of it before they reach voting age.

This. The German government issues electronic IDs which can provide proof of age in a privacy-saving way, but I've never seen that being used in the wild.

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#17

Post by everdrive »

miguelbemartin wrote: post #13

In my opinion, access to internet should always be behind a device controlled by an adult. And it should be this adult's responsibility to set appropriate restrictions for minors.

Agreed. My kids are young right now, but I'm wondering if we can just have a shared family room computer like in the 90s. (school-based laptops might thwart this, but maybe by the time they're school-aged people will realize that constantly putting kids in front a screen is a bad thing to do?)

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#18

Post by danaris »

knollimar wrote: post #15
danaris wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any on-device solution that simply sends back a yes/no result as you describe is guaranteed to have one of two problems: 1) It is vulnerable to modifications and hacks on the local device that get it to send back a "yes" result without actually verifying anything OR 2) It requires the device to use some kind of closed, proprietary system that allows the service to guarantee that #1 cannot happen Now, in general, the…

I don't want it in my hardware but I'd buy an accessory that does this.

Would you be OK with everyone who wants to browse the web unhindered being required to buy an accessory that does this...?

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#19

Post by 3rodents »

I don’t like this article. Irrelevant technical nuance is comingled with a philosophical opposition. The technical issues are all solvable. The free speech argument is foolish too: if limiting who can jerk off to pornography is an issue of free speech, surely so is limiting who can enter a bar and converse with the patrons.

Opposition to ID checks because you believe the internet should be open and free is reasonable but this article twists itself into knots throwing everything at the wall. And it is reasonable to believe it is a free speech issue. But we can’t say, at the same time, that the same arguments don’t apply outside of the internet.

(Convenience stores scan ID, bars scan ID, hotels take copies of passports…)

Re: Why isn't online age verification just like showing your ID in person?

#20

Post by bombcar »

everdrive wrote: post #17
miguelbemartin wrote: post #13

In my opinion, access to internet should always be behind a device controlled by an adult. And it should be this adult's responsibility to set appropriate restrictions for minors.

Agreed. My kids are young right now, but I'm wondering if we can just have a shared family room computer like in the 90s. (school-based laptops might thwart this, but maybe by the time they're school-aged people will realize that constantly putting kids in front a screen is a bad thing to do?)

You can be pretty effective with not much - school laptops can be router-blocked to the needful, the main familyroom computer can be visible to all but also have rudimentary DNS blocking, etc.

The key is to be open about it and “more” than reasonable; allow things when requested that aren’t harmful.

If we’re too perfect at protecting them from the world they’ll have no tools to deal with the world, which they will have to do eventually.

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