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Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

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Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#51

Post by creshal »

Xelbair wrote: post #47
maccard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been involved in decisions like this that seem stupid and obvious. There's a million different things that could/should be fixed, and unless you're monitoring this proactively you're unlikely to know it hsould be changed. I'm not an arrowhead employee, but my guess is at some point in the past, they benchmarked it, got a result, and went with it. And that's about all there is to it.

>These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not. We were being very conservative and doubled that projection again to account for unknown unknowns. >We now know that, contrary to most games, the…

"Industry hearsay" in this case was probably Sony telling game devs how awesome the PS5's custom SSD was gonna be, and nobody bothered to check their claims.

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#52

Post by wongarsu »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #29

My takeaway is that it seems like they did NO benchmarking of their own before choosing to do all that duplication. They only talk about performance tradeoff now that they are removing it. Wild

It's pretty standard to do that duplication for games on CD/DVD because seek times are so long. It probably just got carried over as the "obviously correct" way of doing things, since HDDs are like DVDs if you squint a bit

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#53

Post by maccard »

Xelbair wrote: post #47
maccard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been involved in decisions like this that seem stupid and obvious. There's a million different things that could/should be fixed, and unless you're monitoring this proactively you're unlikely to know it hsould be changed. I'm not an arrowhead employee, but my guess is at some point in the past, they benchmarked it, got a result, and went with it. And that's about all there is to it.

>These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not. We were being very conservative and doubled that projection again to account for unknown unknowns. >We now know that, contrary to most games, the…

Nowhere in that does it say “we did zero benchmarking and just went with hearsay”. Basing things on industry data is solid - looking at the steam hardware surveys if a good way to figure out the variety of hardware used without commissioning your own reports. Tech choices are no different.

Do you benchmark every single decision you make on every system on every project you work on? Do you check that redis operation is actually O(1) or do you rely on hearsay. Do you benchmark every single SQL query, every DTO, the overhead of the DI Framework, connection pooler, json serializer, log formatter? Do you ever rely on your own knowledge without verifying the assumptions? Of course you do - you’re human and we have to make some baseline assumptions, and sometimes they’re wrong.

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#54

Post by mary-ext »

creshal wrote: post #51
Xelbair wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not. We were being very conservative and doubled that projection again to account for unknown unknowns. >We now know that, contrary to most games, the…

"Industry hearsay" in this case was probably Sony telling game devs how awesome the PS5's custom SSD was gonna be, and nobody bothered to check their claims.

the industry hearsay is about concern of HDD load times tho

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#55

Post by maccard »

creshal wrote: post #51
Xelbair wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not. We were being very conservative and doubled that projection again to account for unknown unknowns. >We now know that, contrary to most games, the…

"Industry hearsay" in this case was probably Sony telling game devs how awesome the PS5's custom SSD was gonna be, and nobody bothered to check their claims.

What are you talking about?

This has nothing to do with consoles, and only affects PC builds of the game

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#56

Post by alias_neo »

maccard wrote: post #32
_aavaa_ wrote: post #29

My takeaway is that it seems like they did NO benchmarking of their own before choosing to do all that duplication. They only talk about performance tradeoff now that they are removing it. Wild

I've been involved in decisions like this that seem stupid and obvious. There's a million different things that could/should be fixed, and unless you're monitoring this proactively you're unlikely to know it hsould be changed. I'm not an arrowhead employee, but my guess is at some point in the past, they benchmarked it, got a result, and went with it. And that's about all there is to it.

They admitted to testing nothing, they just [googled it].

To be fair, the massive install size was probably the least of the problems with the game, it's performance has been atrocious, and when they released for xbox, the update that came with it broke the game entirely for me and was unplayable for a few weeks until they released another update.

In their defense, they seem to have been listening to players and have been slowly but steadily improving things.

Playing Helldivers 2 is a social thing for me where I get together online with some close friends and family a few times a month and we play some helldivers and have a chat, aside from that period where I couldn't play because it was broken, it's been a pretty good experience playing it on Linux; even better since I switched from nvidia to AMD just over a week ago.

I'm glad they reduced the install size and saved me ~130GB, and I only had to download about another 20GB to do it.

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#58

Post by Hendrikto »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #29

My takeaway is that it seems like they did NO benchmarking of their own before choosing to do all that duplication. They only talk about performance tradeoff now that they are removing it. Wild

> our worst case projections did not come to pass. These loading time projections were based on industry data - comparing the loading times between SSD and HDD users where data duplication was and was not used. In the worst cases, a 5x difference was reported between instances that used duplication and those that did not. We were being very conservative and doubled that projection again to account for unknown unknowns.

They basically just made the numbers up. Wild.

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#59

Post by everdrive »

I love Helldivers 2, but from what I can tell it's a bunch of enthusiasts using a relatively broken engine to try to do cool stuff. It almost reminds me of the first pokemon game. I'll bet there's all sorts of stuff they get wrong from a strictly technical standpoint. I love the game so much I see this more as a charming quirk than I do something which really deserves criticism. The team never really expected their game to be as popular as it's become, and I think we're still inheriting flaws from the surprise interest in the game. (some of this plays out in the tug of war between the dev team's hopes for a realistic grunt fantasy vs. and the player base's horde power fantasy.)

Re: Helldivers 2 on-disk size 85% reduction

#60

Post by whywhywhywhy »

Hikikomori wrote: post #41
_aavaa_ wrote: post #29

My takeaway is that it seems like they did NO benchmarking of their own before choosing to do all that duplication. They only talk about performance tradeoff now that they are removing it. Wild

They used industry data to make the decision first to avoid potential multi minute load times for 10% or do of their players, hard to test all kinds of pc configurations. Now they have telemetry showing that it doesn't matter because another parallel task takes about as much time anyway.

Maybe it's changed a lot statistically in the last few years but for long time PC gamers used to have the mantra of small SSD for the OS and large HDD for games if they're price conscious so I could see that being assumed to be much more normal during development.
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