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Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

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Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#121

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

autoexec wrote: post #39
yannyu wrote: post #12

I've thought about this a lot as I see more and more reckless driving in the areas I live in. Surveillance is generally a net negative, but it's also bad when you see people speeding around schools, rolling through stop signs, and running red lights. We seem to have a worst of all situations where traffic is getting increasingly difficult to enforce, driving is getting more dangerous year by year, and we're terrified…

> Surveillance is generally a net negative, but it's also bad when you see people speeding around schools, rolling through stop signs, and running red lights. The fact that these cameras are already pervasive and the problem of bad drivers hasn't been solved anywhere doesn't give me a lot of hope that these cameras are the solution to that particular problem. It seems like police can do a lot to increase enforcement…

In the US, a traffic ticket is an indictment of a crime (says it on the ticket. I wish I didn't know that fact).

That means that you have a right to trial/appeal, and the accuser (the cop) needs to show up, if you request a trial.

Traffic cameras can't accuse you of a crime, so they are considered civil infractions (no points, but also means they are a bitch to appeal). They can issue realtime civil citations, though.

ALPRS can't do either. They are forensic tools; not enforcement tools.

I believe in the UK, a camera can convict you of a crime, so they can issue severe tickets. They wouldn't really be able to do that, in the US.

In my county (Suffolk, NY), they just stopped all the redlight cameras. I doubt they would do so for ALPRs.

Also, I think some ALPRs are private. There's a shopping center, not too far from here, that's in a relatively high-crime neighborhood. They have cameras and ALPRs, all over the parking lots.

Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#122

Post by mrb »

drunner wrote: post #119
yannyu wrote: post #12

I've thought about this a lot as I see more and more reckless driving in the areas I live in. Surveillance is generally a net negative, but it's also bad when you see people speeding around schools, rolling through stop signs, and running red lights. We seem to have a worst of all situations where traffic is getting increasingly difficult to enforce, driving is getting more dangerous year by year, and we're terrified…

A camera doesn't stop those acts though, it may only discourage those who know about it at a huge cost of privacy and rights. How about we build better infrastructure and regulate vehicles since those do actually stop this behavior. Most of those red lights and stoplights in the US should be roundabouts. Narrower lanes and other traffic calming measures should be much more pervasive. Vehicle size, specifically bumper…

Thanks for this CDC link! So the pedestrian death rate and the overall road traffic death rate is about three times higher in the US compared to other high-income countries... Mind-boggling.

Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#123

Post by cons0le »

barnas2 wrote: post #120
cons0le wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC should have been the model to follow. Instead of flock cameras, cities should have bounty systems: record a video of a speed violation with a plate, and get 10% of the ticket revenue. Enforcement would explode. We could of had a system where we used the technology we already had in our hands to democratize speed enforcement, instead of corporatizing it

NYC already tried Snitching as a Service during COVID, and it went terribly. I grew up with a neighbor who would constantly record people and call the cops over every little perceived infraction. Everyone in the neighborhood hated her, including the cops. I do not want to live in a society that encourages those people.

I definitely agree it can go too far. Maybe only allow bounties for active, dangerous crimes like speeding, drunk driving, and racing?

Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#124

Post by wwweston »

runtimepanic wrote: post #3

One thing this surfaces nicely is how scale changes the privacy model. Individually these look like “mere observation,” but once you can reconstruct routine movement patterns across counties, the data starts behaving more like long-term tracking than casual surveillance.

Retention is one good line between enforcement and tracking.

If we wanted to solve this problem while retaining the benefits, what we'd do is have stiff penalties for warrantless retention and required yearly independent audits of systems.

Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#126

Post by privacypoet »

yannyu wrote: post #12

I've thought about this a lot as I see more and more reckless driving in the areas I live in. Surveillance is generally a net negative, but it's also bad when you see people speeding around schools, rolling through stop signs, and running red lights. We seem to have a worst of all situations where traffic is getting increasingly difficult to enforce, driving is getting more dangerous year by year, and we're terrified…

I agree. And Flock doesn’t help one bit with reducing reckless driving.

Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#128

Post by gosub100 »

yannyu wrote: post #12

I've thought about this a lot as I see more and more reckless driving in the areas I live in. Surveillance is generally a net negative, but it's also bad when you see people speeding around schools, rolling through stop signs, and running red lights. We seem to have a worst of all situations where traffic is getting increasingly difficult to enforce, driving is getting more dangerous year by year, and we're terrified…

I would actually be for civil asset forfeiture in these cases. The laws of physics don't care about due process; sue the car and save the video. Let the owner pay the fines and if they can prove some other driver did it, let them file civil suit against them to recoup the fines. Driving on public property is not a right.

Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#129

Post by LocalH »

mikem170 wrote: post #62
nerdsniper wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Automatically shutting off/disabling or limiting the use of cell phones (all of which come with sensors that can detect when you are going at speeds you'd expect while in cars) might help. I can’t think of a way to implement this that wouldn’t ban passengers from using their phone while riding in a vehicle. Which could be even a bus or limousine.

A lot of people would be fine with that. Drivers are impaired while on the phone, even hands-free. Not to mention texting while driving! I kind of picture the cellular telcos doing this. Maybe buses and trains come with wifi hotspots allowed to connect. Otherwise auto passengers could use their devices offline, maybe read an ebook or something. Not the end of the world.

Is a driver impaired if they are using their phone to stream music (or screen-off Youtube listening) to their car while driving?

Re: Show HN: Automated license plate reader coverage in the USA

#130

Post by jollyllama »

autoexec wrote: post #39
yannyu wrote: post #12

I've thought about this a lot as I see more and more reckless driving in the areas I live in. Surveillance is generally a net negative, but it's also bad when you see people speeding around schools, rolling through stop signs, and running red lights. We seem to have a worst of all situations where traffic is getting increasingly difficult to enforce, driving is getting more dangerous year by year, and we're terrified…

> Surveillance is generally a net negative, but it's also bad when you see people speeding around schools, rolling through stop signs, and running red lights. The fact that these cameras are already pervasive and the problem of bad drivers hasn't been solved anywhere doesn't give me a lot of hope that these cameras are the solution to that particular problem. It seems like police can do a lot to increase enforcement…

This! Things keep getting worse and worse, and we keep getting more surveillance. It's clearly not the answer!
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