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EFF launches Age Verification Hub

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Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#11

Post by rlpb »

I'd be OK with an "I am a child" header mandated by law to be respected by service providers (eg. "adult sites" must not permit a client setting the header to proceed). On the client side, mandate that consumer devices that might reasonably be expected to be used by children (every smartphone, tablet, smart TV, etc) have parental controls that set the header. Leave it to parents to set the controls. Perhaps even hold parents culpable for not doing so, as a minimum supervision requirement, just as one may hold parents culpable for neglecting their children in other ways.

Forcing providers to divine the age of the user, or requiring an adult's identity to verify that they are not a child, is backwards, for all the reasons pointed out. But that's not the only way to "protect the children". Relying on a very minimal level of parental supervision of device use should be fine; we already expect far more than that in non-technology areas.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#13

Post by brianbest101 »

bobajeff wrote: post #8

I wonder what the psychological effect of having little or no privacy would do to people. Are we all going to be paranoid schizophrenics? How would a world of paranoid schizophrenics work? How insane are world events going to be from that point on?

[dead]

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#14

Post by owisd »

mikece wrote: post #2

Any time law-makers claim that a law is meant to protect children you can guarantee that the safety of children had almost nothing to do with it. This is all a push to normalize digital ID (to protect the children!); once normalized it will become mandatory .

[flagged]

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#15

Post by ProjectArcturis »

rlpb wrote: post #11

I'd be OK with an "I am a child" header mandated by law to be respected by service providers (eg. "adult sites" must not permit a client setting the header to proceed). On the client side, mandate that consumer devices that might reasonably be expected to be used by children (every smartphone, tablet, smart TV, etc) have parental controls that set the header. Leave it to parents to set the controls. Perhaps even hold…

I'm not sure that making parents legally culpable for their kids being smart enough to download a new browser is LESS government intrusion.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#16

Post by hypeatei »

rlpb wrote: post #11

I'd be OK with an "I am a child" header mandated by law to be respected by service providers (eg. "adult sites" must not permit a client setting the header to proceed). On the client side, mandate that consumer devices that might reasonably be expected to be used by children (every smartphone, tablet, smart TV, etc) have parental controls that set the header. Leave it to parents to set the controls. Perhaps even hold…

Okay, so the HTTP header idea seems like it would have two issues:

1) Given that it just says you're a "child", how does that work across jurisdictions where the adult age may not be 18?

2) It seems like it could be abused by fingerprinters, ad services, and even hostile websites that want to show inappropriate content to children.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#17

Post by bena »

rlpb wrote: post #11

I'd be OK with an "I am a child" header mandated by law to be respected by service providers (eg. "adult sites" must not permit a client setting the header to proceed). On the client side, mandate that consumer devices that might reasonably be expected to be used by children (every smartphone, tablet, smart TV, etc) have parental controls that set the header. Leave it to parents to set the controls. Perhaps even hold…

I am a Russian proxy site, I make requests for you without the header. I serve you the content because I don't care about following American laws.

Alternatively, just use an older browser that doesn't serve the header.

If anything, you'd want the reverse. A header that serves as a disclaimer saying "I'm an adult, you can serve me anything" and then the host would only serve if the browser sends that header. And you'd have to turn it on through the settings/parental controls.

Now, this doesn't handle the proxy situation. You could still have a proxy site that served the request with the header for you, but there's not much you can do about that regardless.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#18

Post by phantasmish »

hypeatei wrote: post #16
rlpb wrote: post #11

I'd be OK with an "I am a child" header mandated by law to be respected by service providers (eg. "adult sites" must not permit a client setting the header to proceed). On the client side, mandate that consumer devices that might reasonably be expected to be used by children (every smartphone, tablet, smart TV, etc) have parental controls that set the header. Leave it to parents to set the controls. Perhaps even hold…

Okay, so the HTTP header idea seems like it would have two issues: 1) Given that it just says you're a "child", how does that work across jurisdictions where the adult age may not be 18? 2) It seems like it could be abused by fingerprinters, ad services, and even hostile websites that want to show inappropriate content to children.

> 1) Given that it just says you're a "child", how does that work across jurisdictions where the adult age may not be 18?

It's a client-side flag saying "treat this request as coming from a child (whatever that means to you)". I don't follow what the jurisdiction concern is.

[EDIT] Oooooh you mean if a child is legally 18 where the server is, but 16 where the client is. But the header could be un-set for a 5-year-old, too, so I don't think that much matters. The idea would be to empower parents to set a policy that flags requests from their kids as coming from a child. If they fail to do that, I suppose that'd be on them.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#19

Post by pembrook »

rlpb wrote: post #11

I'd be OK with an "I am a child" header mandated by law to be respected by service providers (eg. "adult sites" must not permit a client setting the header to proceed). On the client side, mandate that consumer devices that might reasonably be expected to be used by children (every smartphone, tablet, smart TV, etc) have parental controls that set the header. Leave it to parents to set the controls. Perhaps even hold…

> Perhaps even hold parents culpable for not doing so, as a minimum supervision requirement

Even the idea of prosecuting parents for allowing their child to access 'information,' no matter what that information is, just sounds like asking for 1984-style insanity.

A good rule of thumb when creating laws: imagine someone with opposite political views from yours applying said law at their discretion (because it will happen at some point!).

Another good question to ask yourself: is this really a severe enough problem that government needs to apply authoritarian control via its monopoly on violence to try to solve? Or is it just something I'm abstractly worried about because some pseudo-intellectuals are doing media tours to try to sell books by inciting moral panic?

As with every generation who is constantly worried about what "kids these days" are up to, it's highly highly likely the kids will be fine.

The worrying is a good instinct, but when it becomes an irrational media hysteria (the phase we're in for the millennial generation who've had kids and are becoming their parents), it creates perverse incentives and leads to dumb outcomes.

The truth is the young are more adaptable than the old. It's the adults we need to worry about.

Re: EFF launches Age Verification Hub

#20

Post by hypeatei »

phantasmish wrote: post #18
hypeatei wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so the HTTP header idea seems like it would have two issues: 1) Given that it just says you're a "child", how does that work across jurisdictions where the adult age may not be 18? 2) It seems like it could be abused by fingerprinters, ad services, and even hostile websites that want to show inappropriate content to children.

> 1) Given that it just says you're a "child", how does that work across jurisdictions where the adult age may not be 18? It's a client-side flag saying "treat this request as coming from a child (whatever that means to you)". I don't follow what the jurisdiction concern is. [EDIT] Oooooh you mean if a child is legally 18 where the server is, but 16 where the client is. But the header could be un-set for a 5-year-old…

The concern is that websites have no way to tell the actual age in this scenario so you'd be potentially inconveniencing and/or blocking legitimate users (according to the server jurisdiction's rules)

It doesn't seem sufficient, and would probably lead to age verification laws anyway.

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