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Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

yosefk.com

221–230 of 289 posts

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#221
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ageism is "the" problem that you point out, because this is why people can't even get an interview after age 40, right? There are employers biased against older candidates, I guess - though not near me, not to the point where I'm able to get all the good candidates aged 40 and up for peanuts, and it's not like I'm not searching, goodness knows. But I think this is going to get better over time, as the masses…

I'm the only employee of my business, but I do contract 1099s when needed. When I do, I try to get older professionals, simply because I get a more efficient bang for my buck. Far too many younger techs within a few years of entering the workforce, are too prone to the "not-invented-here" syndrome and re-invent too many wheels. Like we all were, right? Maybe I shouldn't have been an absolutist about not being able to…

ADEA protects older workers, not younger ones.

>The ADEA permits employers to favor older workers based on age even when doing so adversely affects a younger worker who is 40 or older.

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/age.html

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#222

"Programmers who can program at all - as in, print out a binary tree correctly" Strikingly succinct and useful benchmark, just sort of thrown in there like it was jam on toast. There are some tidbits of wisdom in this article, but overall it boils down to a life that has lost all meaning and passion and has succumbed to the lowest common denominator: money. True, maybe, but sad, really.

TIL your life is wasted if your treat your job as a job.

If you spend 40 of your 112 waking hours per week doing something other than what you're passionate about, you're wasting at least a third of your life. Unfortunately we've created an economy that compels most people to do this.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#223
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of tenure is that it's well tenure. There is actual value attached to a sinecure. What would it cost right now to buy an investment that would pay you a six figure salary for the rest of your life, no strings attached? That's what tenure is worth. Now tell me profs aren't well rewarded.

By no means was I trying to say that professors aren't well rewarded, if that's how I came across, I didn't communicate very effectively. My point was mainly that there aren't very many of those high paying positions relative to the number of graduates in the field. The ratio of graduates : professors is not too different than the ratio of CS grads : CS professors, but unlike CS, biology doesn't have nearly as many h…

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Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#224
post #7

If you're into programmer and not in it for the passion there is a high chance that you're a mediocre programmer. But indeed that doesnt matter. Because the demand is high. But for me, this is what drives me: working with an excellent team on a product/service that is heavily used and comes with technical challenges. If managers, business and bad programmers interfere with this, i'd rather stop and get a decent job.…

The tricky part is defining passion. I think the key element is that insatiable curiosity that pulls you in when you're doing it. The desire and drive to understand every nuance of a system is what makes it possible to be a good programmer. In other words, a clock-punching mentality is not enough, but neither is making it your life's mission necessary.

Hm, it's obviously true that the computer doesn't care what your life's mission is, but I don't know how someone would avoid having that insatiable curiosity dominate their life. I never could, and I only tried briefly because I felt like a freak (and to be fair, compared to the mainstream we are).

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#225
Perhaps I can add my experience in this. I was very good at programming in college. I was one of those guys that left the labs under the hatefull gaze of the entire lab section having finished his assignment early. And boy I loved it too. I was so happy having finished a large programming project or a large engineering design assignment. After getting an interesting assignment I would literally skip on the way back home daydreaming about how I will write it. I was not at the best university, mostly because I was an immigrant so I was not able to get good grades/sat scores, but it was a very decent state school.

But while in college I saw that most powerful people in america were lawyers of some kind. These were the days of the Clintons, btw. Then I got into my stupid head that perhaps I should go to law school. You know in order to join the power elite and make a difference and all that.

By that time my english was very good, and being naturally intelligent (I will not bore you with false modesty), I got into some of the very best law schools in America. I chose one and did very well there and got jobs at some very prestigous top law firms. Basically, for a while I had the promise of a career that most lawyers would dream of.

But now this is all in shambles and I am thinking of getting back into engineering or something more closely related to technology.

Oscar Wilde said something very wise (paraphrasing): "I used to have the life of my dreams and I was happy; now I have the life of everybody else's dreams and it is incredibly tiresome"

So my advice is if you are one of those natural programmers by all means do it, and do not ever think about what other people say about "what would you be doing when you are 50." Yosef (the author of this article) is one of those people, and to him the answer is very simple and very happy: "programming".

You see this question of "can you see yourself as a programmer when you are 50" does not have much to do with ageism or the labor market but about people's inner feelings and desires. Some people are horrified to see themselves as programmers when they are 50, not because of the market but because they secretly loathe it. And to see themselves doing it when they are 50 seems like a life sentence. For others, it is the most natural thing in the world.

I remember when I was a lawyer I once had an especially good stretch. Some of our top clients complimented my work. This is a big deal because those clients spent crazy money on fees and it is very rare for anyone to complement a lawyer's work. I thought to myself "wow keep going and you will be a partner in no time". Then I thought about life as a lawyer, doing the same thing over and over again, for the rest of my life and it was the most depressing thing ever. It was horrifying and the thought about multi-million dollar salaries did not help (although now in my much more perilous situation those salaries sure seem nice). I got into a serious depression and that badly affected my work thereafter.

So my advice is, if you are good at programming, if you are one of those few for whom this stuff just clicks, go for it and do not listen what anyone says about markets, or ageism etc. Note that those that are really good at programming are very few. Even among programmers, I would say that those to whom programming is annoying and a little scary greatly outnumber the ones that have real talent for it.

So people will generally give you many reasons to move away from it, but those are their reasons, not yours. If you are part of this select group just count your blessings. And here are some of these blessings:

1. You know how rare it is to have a passion and talent for something, and at the same time have that something be valuable and useful. Think of all the brilliant and passionate people that are into disciplines where only a few thousand people in the world get a decent income. Think of all dancers, screenwrights, directors, painters, poets, chess players, etc.

2. You have a wonderful differentiator of skill and ability: things either work or not. When I was a lawyer I had to compete with so many hacks. When I would stay up nights writing complex documents, trying to phrase every single word just the right way, when I would stress out for hours about a particular phrasing or argument, they would slap something together quickly and with no second thought. And their work would look like mine to the client. The consequences of bad legal work are uncertain and tend to be much delayed.

3. Your craft requires very little investment. Again, you have no idea how lucky that is. Even startups that require capital, get it mostly for salaries. There is no expensive equipment to purchase, etc. Marx thought so much about how to connect workers to their means of production, and in the end came up with a theory that turned out into a complete disaster and caused untold tradegy. If he only knew that some day there would be a sub $500 means of production that can create wealth worth millions he would not go into silly plans about dictatorship of the proletariat.

There is more but I have rambled enough. Heed my advice. If you are one of the lucky ones, ignore what the less lucky ones are saying and do not squander your good fortune.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ageism I saw is why I decided I didn't want to be in software development for the long term and left the field. I personally think the mentality is stupid and probably quite inefficient. In my field, law, they don't even let you into the courtroom until you're 5+ years in. Practicing law is an art and people with 20 years of experience are just better at it than people starting out. I never understood why so many…

I wouldn't argue for ageism, but I would say programming is different from law because technology changes much faster than law. There aren't giant paradigm shifts in law every 10 years. A new technology may in fact be much more productive to work with than an old one. Does someone with COBOL experience have an advantage or a disadvantage in learning Python vs someone who is just starting? Which is larger, the amount…

We also have the issue of "digital natives."

In programming, there is a difference in someone who learned computers in college, someone who learned computers in high school, and someone who learned computers in grade school. Then the next wave was kids who grew up with the internet. I suspect it will continue with kids who grew up with touch devices. I don't think there is a similar parallel in other industries.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#227
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on! I am in mid-forties and not just did not have any problems getting interviews, but also did not have any problems switching jobs a few months ago. Where I work we can't find enough decent devs for any money. H1-B is just a memory at that point. Mind you, this is not Silicon Valley, the market is quite a bit smaller (north Denver metro). Someone is either feeding you bad information or you are extrapolatin…

Apparently you didn't read my comment all that well. Re-read, and catch the "there are locations" where the article would be correct. You are falling into the same trap as the author of the original article. Just because Denver metro (or the Valley, DC, Minneapolis or a couple of other tech/government centers) are doing well, you're extrapolating that the rest of the nation is the same. I know there are places where…

Of course "there are locations," there are always locations. It's hard to be an oil derrick worker in the middle of Manhattan, and that's not because the cost of living there is so high.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hogwash. For every skilled craftsman you can find, I can find ten other idiots making ten times as much money thanks to being born in the right family. Skilled developers recognize that rockstar developers can be ten times as productive as average ones. I haven't ever heard of any developers making ten times the average salary or even double the average. Stock brokers are regularly getting beaten by monkeys when it c…

"I haven't ever heard of any developers making ten times the average salary or even double the average." Programmers who are making that kind of money know enough to keep it quiet.

I have never met a programmer making 10x the average salary ($500k - $1mm depending) excluding liquidity events.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hogwash. For every skilled craftsman you can find, I can find ten other idiots making ten times as much money thanks to being born in the right family. Skilled developers recognize that rockstar developers can be ten times as productive as average ones. I haven't ever heard of any developers making ten times the average salary or even double the average. Stock brokers are regularly getting beaten by monkeys when it c…

To be fair, compensation in banking is very related to performance. Investment bankers get paid on the size of their deals, traders get paid based on how much they make, money managers get paid based on how much they bring in. The majority of people get pushed out within a few years if they aren't top performers. The key thing to realize is that value to the customer isn't part of the performance equation. It doesn't…

    compensation in banking is very related to performance
The last four or five are conclusive proof that this is not even remotely true.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ageism I saw is why I decided I didn't want to be in software development for the long term and left the field. I personally think the mentality is stupid and probably quite inefficient. In my field, law, they don't even let you into the courtroom until you're 5+ years in. Practicing law is an art and people with 20 years of experience are just better at it than people starting out. I never understood why so many…

It's all about the money. New graduates are cheaper. It's that simple. Technology and business are both over-populated with Randian/Libertarian douchebags for whom the quarterly bottom line is more important than good engineering or business as a sustainable entity in the larger social setting. Everything else is handwaving to hide this fact.

Besides advocating murder in some other comment, a quick scan of your post history reveals you mostly leave incendiary political remarks and don't really add anything useful, in my opinion, to a hacker discussion. In other words, fatbird is a troll account.

__Could someone with administrative access take a look and ban fatbird's account?__

Regarding this post specifically: I'm not sure what kind of sensible forum lets you tar an entire class of people with the label "douchebag."

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