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'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

dri.es

61–70 of 172 posts

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#61

Watching what we charitably call this debate flare up yet again gives me an odd mix of feelings. On the one hand, seeing people I've read and listened to for years heave time, attention, and more typing onto this tire fire evokes deep tragedy. On the other hand, I've been there, casting my own vanities to the bonfire, more than a few times. There's comfort in the familiar heat and glow. I couldn't escape the waste un…

> After all, who reads blogs? I used to read yours, anyway! If the literal lawyer who specializes in licenses doesn't have a clear point of view on this, what hope do the rest of us have?

My point of view is clear, but what I see is complex. Things seemed simpler back when I believed what Slashdot told me, before I'd spent twenty years getting involved and looking closer.

If you're looking for a seer with a salvation plan---as technology, legal innovation, organizational form---I don't have hope to offer you.

Look at the figureheads of free and open, the "philosophers". The ones we remember succeeded, but not on the terms of the lofty gospels they preached. Very few practical systems are "free". Most competitive software is closed, and sharing code across orgs still sucks much of the time. Linus succeeded, but Linus just wanted to code, get respect, and make good money. Glad he did.

Thinking we'd seen the end of software history got us here. Now I see more willingness to try new things again. They mostly wither or fail, but so did most early attempts at "free". Mutation, selection, adaptation.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same team. Open source isn't really about the license, and it's also not even really about the source; open source is a philosophy centering open development and collaboration . Sharing the source is necessary, but not sufficient. Too often, "source available" means you get to see the source, but you are not invited to participate in development, and certainly you're not going to be participating in collabora…

Haven't open source projects done the rug pull too? Can't they relicense new code going forward? I guess I would have thought of source available as existing under the open source umbrella. I get that there is an important distinction but from an adoption and evangelism standpoint it seems like an unnecessary crusade to push them away. Do those projects have a strong track record of behaving badly? Do you think DHH h…

> Haven't open source projects done the rug pull too? Can't they relicense new code going forward?

They can, if the original license is permissive, or if there was a CLA. They can't for significant contributions under a copyleft license that was not done under a CLA. Something to consider when contributing to a project that uses a CLA or a permissive license.

> I get that there is an important distinction but from an adoption and evangelism standpoint it seems like an unnecessary crusade to push them away.

Depends on your goals. If source available misses the point anyway, adoption doesn't help, the message risks being blurred, and therefore you should push back.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#63

As a lay person, I still don't get what is AGPL missing that makes vendors "invent" so many new licenses and spawn so much debate? Why not just use AGPL, and if it's insufficient, invest in an AGPLv2 initiative?

The major concern regarding the AGPL is that it only fosters code share when a code change is involved. The license has nothing to do with someone building a competitive service around your project.

If a Big Tech company happened to build a cloud service (SaaS) around your project without any code change, and that service is more competitive than the one you provide, there is not much you can do about it with the AGPL.

The AGPL is published by the FSF, with mainly community-led projects in mind. The profit and sustainability of a corporation is not their primary concern. (A minor correction: The most recent version is v3; any newer version would be v4, not v2.)

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#64

As a lay person, I still don't get what is AGPL missing that makes vendors "invent" so many new licenses and spawn so much debate? Why not just use AGPL, and if it's insufficient, invest in an AGPLv2 initiative?

MinIO made their source AGPL, but then cloud providers hosted the service "as is" and make money off it, with MinIO team getting zip. That still complies with AGPL but is not monetarily beneficial to the MinIO team.

At least that's my understanding. They closed source completely, but a source-available license wouldn't have run into this issue.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#65

As a lay person, I still don't get what is AGPL missing that makes vendors "invent" so many new licenses and spawn so much debate? Why not just use AGPL, and if it's insufficient, invest in an AGPLv2 initiative?

See https://writing.kemitchell.com/2018/11/04/Copyleft-Bust-Up#b...

MongoDB invested sufficient resources in drafting an update to the AGPL. That license is called the Server Side Public License. Controversy ensued.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#67
I always wonder why people bother with providing source under a source available license. It makes outside contributions a lot less likely. Your active community of people working on the code base effectively becomes your employees.

There's little to no benefit to outside users. Any work they do on the code is effectively free work they do for you that entitles them to nothing. Including free usage and distribution of the work they did. It's not likely to be helpful.

My attitude to source available products is the same as to proprietary products. I tend to limit my dependency on those. Companies have short life spans. Many OSS projects I use have a history of surviving the implosion of companies that once actively contributed to them. Developer communities are much more resilient than companies. Source unavailable effectively becomes source unavailable when companies fail. Especially VC funded companies are kind of engineered (by VCs) to fail fast. So, it's just not a great basis for making a long term commitment.

If something like Bun (recently acquired by anthropic) becomes orphaned, we'd still have the git source code and a permissive license. Somebody could take over the project or fork it or even create a new company around it. Some of the original developers would probably show up. A project like that is resilient against that. And projects like that have active contributors outside of the corporate context that provide lots of contributions. Because of the license. You don't get that without a good OSS license. I judge software projects by the quality of their development communities. It needs to have diversity, a good mix of people that know what they are doing, and a broad enough user community that the project is likely to be supported in perpetuity.

Shared source provides only the illusion of that. Depending on them is risky. And that risk is rarely offset by quality. Of course people use proprietary software for some things. And that's fine. I'm no different. But most of the stuff I care about is OSS.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#68

As a lay person, I still don't get what is AGPL missing that makes vendors "invent" so many new licenses and spawn so much debate? Why not just use AGPL, and if it's insufficient, invest in an AGPLv2 initiative?

See https://writing.kemitchell.com/2018/11/04/Copyleft-Bust-Up#b... MongoDB invested sufficient resources in drafting an update to the AGPL. That license is called the Server Side Public License. Controversy ensued.

But SSPL was not approved by OSI. BY "investing" I mean getting it to the same status as AGPL :)

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#70

I love open source, but I'd welcome less of it and more "source available" projects. I think several large coorporations are pushing the boundaries of what "open source" can actually mean in good faith. Especially several recent big name cases where profit models weren't thought out during start up and then licenses for projects aee suddenly changes. The term has erroded a lot recently, I'd be happy to see less, but…

Why? What is meaningful about sharing code with the threat of a lawsuit if someone copies it? Is sounds like you want the term to be erroded?
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