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'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

dri.es

41–50 of 172 posts

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#41

Personally I think differentiation between "open source" and "source available" is good. Open source, is, essentially software that I expect to be able to use commercially and tweak if required - but I'm own my own, and I pay for support. Source available means I can basically help debug issues I have...but I expect that a paid licence is required and will have a selection of limitations (number of nodes, etc).

"Source Available" means that it can become "Source Unavailable" overnight.

See the "Our Machinery" fiasco.

Yes, Open Source isn't a complete defense against this (especially when there are copyright assignments). However, it sure makes it both a lot harder to pull off and a lot less useful to even try.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#42

Interesting. The post is about whether a license prohibiting SaaS competitors is "open source" and whether it might work out as a good way to ensure project sustainability. In this context "source available" means that you have the source code but you can't use it to compete with the project owner. [Kinda puts Omarchy in a different light don't you think?] There is another, I think different, form of "source availabl…

How easy do you have to make it to contribute to be considered “open source”. Obviously, no project accepts every single pull request. Where is the line between “open source” and “no open source” in your definition?

Intent. Do you intent to be a genuinely open community and is it set up around fostering that dynamic as a central aspect of development? It's hard to measure intent, but we can do so indirectly by looking at the project structure:

- Are there contributor guidelines?

- Do contributors have to sign a waiver before they can contribute any code?

- Is there a RFC process?

- Does the project actually respond meaningfully to that feedback, or does it simply get filed in the special complaints folder for corporate.

- Does the project encourage outside contributions in more than a cursory way?

- Does the CLA grant the company unilateral relicensing rights?

- Are governance documents public?

- Can the community vote on decisions?

- Does the community have a say in how it's moderated?

- Are community members invited to actually join the organization?

- Are architectural decisions made in open meetings?

- Is there a public ROADMAP and is the community invited to contribute to it or influence it?

- Can others build competing distributions without fear of retaliation?

- Can the project be forked if there is community disagreement about direction?

Those are just some signals off the top of my head. There's no bright line; the presence or absence of a few won't say anything one way or another. But if many of the answers to those questions are leaning toward the negative, then I don't think it can be open source.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#43
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't ask which part of the license violates OSS values, I asked what those principles and values are. I will infer that "anybody can do whatever they want with the code" is the principle you are referring to. I kind of thought that it was more about stuff like sharing and personal development and edification and the ability to see inside and understand things. But let's get really divisive over the money stuff.

I apologize for having missed the mark with your question. > I will infer that "anybody can do whatever they want with this code, OR ELSE YOU'RE NOT WORTHY" is the principle you are referring to. I feel like there's cynicism in your phrasing, but a perhaps more neutral phrasing would be "Don't pick and choose what specific circumstances your users can use this for".

Or, as GNU puts it,

> The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#44
post #31
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about unambiguously understanding exactly what my rights are and how I can use that code. In the case of the janky new 37signals license: what exactly counts as "... where the primary value of the service is the functionality of the Software itself"? Who gets to define the "primary value" of the thing I built?

So would you say that (in your opinion) a source available license could in theory call itself open source, if it used language you found to be unambiguous about your rights? Or is that not possible?

If it calls itself "open source" and I go to https://opensource.org/licenses and can't find an approved copy of the license - or I can't ask my favourite open source expert lawyer for their advice on it - then I don't want it to call itself open source.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#45
post #36
post #9

> DHH's choice of license reacts to a real pressure in open source: many companies make real money from open source software while leaving the hard work of building and maintaining it to others. If you don't want start a business and make real money from your software then denying that to others is antithetical to the concept of open source and free software. That being said; I have no issue with a developer choosing…

> If you don't want start a business and make real money from your software then denying that to others is antithetical to the concept of open source and free software. What if you do and have done so, yet you're competing with e.g. AWS, GCP, Azure, who can do it for cheaper than you due to scale, and also have a much easier time to sell an extra line item to their existing customers vs you having to go through comme…

If you have a problem with that then don't make it open source.

And if you don't make it open source, don't call it open source.

My own personal position is that my commercial software is commercial for me and my open source software is free for everyone to use for any purpose including making money that I will never see. If I cared, I wouldn't make that software open source.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#46
I love open source, but I'd welcome less of it and more "source available" projects.

I think several large coorporations are pushing the boundaries of what "open source" can actually mean in good faith. Especially several recent big name cases where profit models weren't thought out during start up and then licenses for projects aee suddenly changes.

The term has erroded a lot recently, I'd be happy to see less, but more meaningful "open source" out there.

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#47
post #34
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If something is open source and follows an OSI approved license I don't have to ask a lawyer to review the license before I integrate with that code. The moment you change a single line of that license I now have to pay extremely close attention to those details again. This isn't a naive idealism thing - there are very solid, boring, selfish reasons for caring about this.

This is a good technical point. But this seems to kind of argue that one of the principles of open source is that businesses should be able to pull it into their proprietary projects to make money without hesitation. Is that accurate? I thought that was kind of more of a bonus. I feel like it's participating in the spirit of open source and should be welcomed, if someone wants to make their code available but just wa…

There are open source licenses that don't allow businesses to use them to make money without hesitation like the AGPL.

What matters is clarity. If code is licensed under a known open source license businesses know exactly what they can do with that code. Other users of the code also know that it supports the core criteria outlined in https://opensource.org/osd

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How easy do you have to make it to contribute to be considered “open source”. Obviously, no project accepts every single pull request. Where is the line between “open source” and “no open source” in your definition?

Intent. Do you intent to be a genuinely open community and is it set up around fostering that dynamic as a central aspect of development? It's hard to measure intent, but we can do so indirectly by looking at the project structure: - Are there contributor guidelines? - Do contributors have to sign a waiver before they can contribute any code? - Is there a RFC process? - Does the project actually respond meaningfully…

Completely disagree. To me, and the OSI, none of those things other than redistribution and forking have anything to do with being open source or not. In fact, you could have a closed source project tick nearly all of those boxes, although that would indeed be very unusual.

I'm not sure if there is a term for what you are describing. Perhaps "community driven project".

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#49
Watching what we charitably call this debate flare up yet again gives me an odd mix of feelings. On the one hand, seeing people I've read and listened to for years heave time, attention, and more typing onto this tire fire evokes deep tragedy. On the other hand, I've been there, casting my own vanities to the bonfire, more than a few times. There's comfort in the familiar heat and glow.

I couldn't escape the waste until I was willing to give up the idea of myself as experienced, as an expert. Until I accepted that time served taught me lessons, but didn't bestow authority. Most people coming into this are new. They relearn what's useful and leave the rest behind. That's part of adaptation. I try to see their point of view.

If you ask a newer coder what "open source" means, they might say "like MIT?" or even just "like GitHub?" If you look "open" up in a good thesaurus, "available" is there. The Initiative---really, whoever's on the board now or later---will never own or effectively police the term "open source", much less "open source AI". And nobody claiming "open source" for good or ill will ever summon on themself the kind of attention or cachet that marketing bauble once commanded, no matter what their license says.

As for fellow oldheads, there's no resolving contradictions between ways we learned to frame these issues, decades ago. Can changes to a license be a solution to the funding problem? Can using freedom terms to buttress a business count as truly open? That bizarre conflict of ontologies won't decide where programming goes in the future, if it ever did. I doubt it will even be won or lost. It will just fade away, like the circumstances that started it.

DHH can kick the anthill. The activists can raise their old hue and cry. It's purely elective, demoded dramatics. The real problems of software politics today aren't expressible in either schema. They can even seem tautologically unsolvable. Meanwhile, we've got new aspirational generalities that aren't expressible in the old ways of speaking. "Sustainability", because many doing good aren't doing so well. "Decentralization", because we're all sharecropping on some platform now.

Sometimes I think the best I can do for the younger generations facing today is just to never impose petty trivia about "the movement" ever again. Never deign imply I know what they should consider important. If "free" and "open" meant something to me, let their inheritors tell me what they mean now, in practice. Tell me about the world they built and left for them.

Maybe I don't have to choose. After all, who reads blogs?

Re: 'Source available' is not open source, and that's okay

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How easy do you have to make it to contribute to be considered “open source”. Obviously, no project accepts every single pull request. Where is the line between “open source” and “no open source” in your definition?

Intent. Do you intent to be a genuinely open community and is it set up around fostering that dynamic as a central aspect of development? It's hard to measure intent, but we can do so indirectly by looking at the project structure: - Are there contributor guidelines? - Do contributors have to sign a waiver before they can contribute any code? - Is there a RFC process? - Does the project actually respond meaningfully…

Some of my favorite open source software is random stuff that the author just completely abandoned but had the forethought to make open source so that others could still use it, fix bugs, add features, and even fork it.

RMS just wanted to be able to fix his printer driver.

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