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Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

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Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#121
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farming :-)

Farming is undergoing a similar talent crunch right now. If you are in the right parts of the world and have a little skill behind your name, you can easily make $50/hr as a farmhand. Food and tech is where investors are piling all their money right now. As both a software developer and farmer, I do fear what will happen when investments start going elsewhere.

> If you are in the right parts of the world and have a little skill behind your name, you can easily make $50/hr as a farmhand.

I would be interested in more information about this. Which parts of the world, farming what, what skills make a good farmhand, and is there any public data that I could look at to look at trends?

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#122
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft yes (example: Windows Vista). The others... no. And that is a good thing, for them.

You're right about Google and Amazon, early posting on my part. But I'd say the iPhone was easily a multi-billion dollar project.

I seem to recall iPhone 1.0 being called a $100 million dollar project in some Wired article. They were several hundred people (not thousands), working together for about 2-3 years. That seems sensible, and the numbers seem to add up.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#123
post #111

I think this is a bit cynical (and dangerous) but agree with the premise that currently the number of programming opportunities continues to exceed the number of programmers. However there are signs that this is changing. I do know a programmer who became an IP attorney (doing well at it too) and a couple of programmers who have gone off to do entirely different things (one is a guide in Africa, another drives a tugb…

However there are signs that this is changing. I've been hearing this for fifteen years now, which is about as long as I've been paying attention. For the first five years I was maybe even a little concerned. (In the nineties programmers were going to become obsolete because OOP worked and all code was about to become highly reusable so there wouldn't be any need to write new code. Yes, people were saying this in ear…

I hear you, I don't think the change is being wrought by any magic bullet where programs write themselves, what I'm seeing is that more folks are going into programming than durable programming jobs are being created. (I use the word durable because there are lots of short term requirements.)

So this is how I look at the health of the market:

1) Does any programmer have their choice of jobs? (which is to say bargaining power when changing jobs)

2) What is the median unemployment time for programmers?

3) How are the first two mediated by contract vs full time work?

4) What are the median salaries?

What I've been seeing since the more recent depression is that unemployment median is staying fairly low but that is being achieved by an increase in the number of folks doing contracting work. Full time work (and that includes health benefits which become significantly more expensive for the 'over 50' programmer as a contractor) is getting harder to find.

As with most markets it is more clear on the 'mediocre' programmers (where mediocre is a function of code productivity) Another thing I'm seeing is salary erosion, which is to say that engineers taking lower salaries at large companies to stay employed. That also indicates a switch in the 'bargaining power' of companies looking for programmers vs the available programmers.

The sequence I've seen a number of times now with acquaintances are flat to negative salary growth when leaving one job and moving to the next. Some folks spent a year or two consulting looking for that position that would be a net gain on their salary growth.

From an economist's point of view if prices are flat to trending down it signals a shift in power from the seller to the buyer.

Those are the signs I'm seeing, would love to hear other's experiences on whether or not they think the market is saturating or not.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft yes (example: Windows Vista). The others... no. And that is a good thing, for them.

Google sure has multi-billion dollar projects. Chrome is an example. They're spending that much just _marketing_ the thing every year. Even if we stick to just the development side, I would be very surprised if Google has not spent > 250 million a year on Chrome development over the last 4 years.

You think Google have had 1000+ people on Chrome for the past four years?

The marketing bit is a bit special since they don't actually spend any money by showcasing Chrome on google.com.

Edit: They do spend lots of money to get it pre-installed on new PCs, though.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#126
post #120

The author is a bit naive in his cheerleading, extrapolating his situation in his location to a nation-wide situation. That is just simply not the case. As a business-owner in my mid-40's, I travel around quite a bit. There are locations where the employment picture is similar to what the author describes. But what he describes is far from the norm in the places I travel to, or from what I hear from friends and old c…

This is depressing but a realistic depiction of "how the other half programs".

What are your thoughts on what puts people into that programming underclass (which definitely exists)?

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#127
post #75

> I haven't met programmers who became lawyers. For what it's worth, I'm a programmer in the middle of law school.

Many do, such as Google's Dan Berlin and huge chunks of the IP law field.

And in constitutional law, Eugene Volokh of the Volokh Conspiracy (http://www.volokh.com/).

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#128
post #77

Pretty much. There's also tremendous scope for working from home, or from wherever you want. I can imagine it getting to the stage where job ads for developers will advertise perks like 'work from the beach!' I'm not a full-time developer (though my work involves programming), but I know what I want to be doing in my 30s, 40s... Not just because I like it but because it gives you so much freedom in terms of lifestyle…

I've done programming, functional management and product management. Today, I'm back to programming for exactly this reason. I work remotely, can take 20 minutes to run my kids somewhere or just to sit and listen to the latest problem at school that day. Given how little time I have left with my kids as kids (and how much I wasted chasing a "career"), this alone is worth as much as my salary.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#129
Nice to hear such an optimistic viewpoint. I find some comfortable truths in this essay, but he kind of glosses over some major things.

The moving targets that are the latest fads in languages (every six years a new "generation" does the same old thing their way) and shifts in market demand certainly create an environment requiring constant learning. Unless you're in business for yourself and taking on more risk and stress, your earnings will top out in the low six-figures so you have to value daily comfort and health insurance over any grand ambition or ability to disappear for months at a time. Outsourcing and immigrants willing to work longer hours for less money are a constant macro threat to this comfort zone too.

To say that it requires almost no education isn't true. An engineering or computer science degree surely makes it easier to get a job. Whether that training makes a difference at work if you started coding at age 9 anyway is debatable but a degree gets you recognition as a professional and shows that you have deep cross-training in math and physics.

I do agree coding non-mission critical applications is pretty low stress and for the most part you have a chance at a decent quality of life.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this would do is a short-term depression of SF programmer wages coupled to short-term surge in worldwide programmer wages. Because guess what, smart guy in Ukraine was already employed there and when he moves the next guy coming to fill the gap will either cost more or be less smart. Programmer talent is sparse worldwide, not just in the Valley.

Programmer talent is sparse worldwide And yet, when I look around at the job postings in Canada, a job with requirements that go on endlessly tops out at about $80,000/year. Expect less if you are an average programmer. Such a low income, relative to what US-based companies are offering, doesn't really speak to a shortage in my mind. I admit, there could be some kind of survivorship bias here: I'm only seeing the low…

> a job with requirements that go on endlessly tops out at about $80,000/year

An endless list of job requirements is a sign the company doesn't know what it wants, so it's hardly surprising they don't know how much to pay their programmers, either.

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