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If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

stephenramsay.net

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Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#111

Post by mdavidn »

epolanski wrote: post #103
gitremote wrote: post #33

Software development jobs must be very diverse if even this anti-vibe-coding guy thinks AI coding definitely makes developers more productive. In my work, the bigger bottleneck to productivity is that very few people can correctly articulate requirements. I work in backend, API development, which is completely different from fullstack development with backend development. If you ask PMs about backend requirements, th…

If AI doesn't make you more productive you're using it wrong, end of story. Even if you don't let it author or write a single line of code, from collecting information, inspecting code, reviewing requirements, reviewing PRs, finding bugs, hell even researching information online, there's so many things it does well and fast that if you're not leveraging it, you're either in denial or have ai skill issues period.

It sounds like you're the one in denial? AI makes some things faster, like working in a language I don't know very well. It makes other things slower, like working in a language I already know very well. In both cases, writing code is a small percentage of the total development effort.

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#112

Post by gitremote »

epolanski wrote: post #103
gitremote wrote: post #33

Software development jobs must be very diverse if even this anti-vibe-coding guy thinks AI coding definitely makes developers more productive. In my work, the bigger bottleneck to productivity is that very few people can correctly articulate requirements. I work in backend, API development, which is completely different from fullstack development with backend development. If you ask PMs about backend requirements, th…

If AI doesn't make you more productive you're using it wrong, end of story. Even if you don't let it author or write a single line of code, from collecting information, inspecting code, reviewing requirements, reviewing PRs, finding bugs, hell even researching information online, there's so many things it does well and fast that if you're not leveraging it, you're either in denial or have ai skill issues period.

My company mandates AI usage and logs AI usage metrics as input to performance evaluation, so I use it every day. It's a Copilot subscription, though.

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#113

Post by VertanaNinjai »

ActorNightly wrote: post #109
markstos wrote: post #105

I have successfully vibe-coded features in C. I still don't like C. The agent forgets to free memory latter just like a human would and has to go back and fix it later. On the other hand, I've enjoyed vibe coding Rust more, because I'm interested in Rust and felt like my understanding approved along they way as I saw what code was produced. A lot of coding "talent" isn't skill with the language, it's learning all the…

> The agent forgets to free memory latter just like a human would and has to go back and fix it later. I highly recommend people learn how to write their own agents. Its really not that hard. You can do it with any llm model, even ones that run locally. I.e you can automate things like checking for memory freeing.

Do you have any good starting points? For example, if someone had an ollama or lm studio daemon running where would they go from that point?

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#114

Post by [deleted] »

swatcoder wrote: post #81
jcelerier wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I've never worked in an environment that seemed too complex. On my side my primary blocker is writing code. I have an unending list of features, protocols, experiments, etc. to implement, and so far the main limit was the time necessary to actually write the damn code.

That sounds like papier mache more than bridge building, forever pasting more code on as ideas and time permit without the foresight to engineer or architect towards some cohesive long-term vision. Most software products built that way seem to move fast at first but become monstrous abominations over time. If those are the only places you keep finding yourself in, be careful!

[deleted]

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#115

Post by hadlock »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #92

I very much doubt the ability of LLMs to provide leak-free, faulty memory management free, C code, because they are trained on loads of bad code in that regard. They will not output code of the quality that maybe 1% of C developers could, if even that many. Fact is, that even well paid and professional C/C++ developers introduce memory management issues in such code bases (see Chromium project statistics about this).…

He says in his article:

>Is C the ideal language for vibe coding? I think I could mount an argument for why it is not, but surely Rust is even less ideal.

I've been using Rust with LLMs for a long time (mid-2023?) now; cargo check and the cargo package system make it very easy for LLMs to check their work and produce high quality code that almost never breaks, and always compiles.

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#116

Post by [deleted] »

f1shy wrote: post #61
jcelerier wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I've never worked in an environment that seemed too complex. On my side my primary blocker is writing code. I have an unending list of features, protocols, experiments, etc. to implement, and so far the main limit was the time necessary to actually write the damn code.

I don’t want to imply this is your case, because of course I’ve no idea how you work. But I’ve seen way too often, the reason for so many separate features is: A) as stated by parent comment, the ones doing req. mngmt. Are doing a poor job of abstracting the requirements, and what could be done as one feature suddenly turns in 25. B) in a similar manner as A, all solutions imply writing more and more code, and never…

[deleted]

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#117

Post by zdragnar »

nialv7 wrote: post #83
zdragnar wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't like rust is the only language with memory safety; plenty of high level languages don't let you fiddle with memory bits in a way that would be unsafe. The tradeoff is that they typically come with garbage collectors. If the only concern is "can an LLM write code in this language without memory errors" then there's plenty of reasons to choose a language other than Rust.

But the author isn't saying we should program in any of these memory safe languages. The author is saying why don't we vibe code in C, or even assembly.

This thread moved the conversation away from the posted article quite a few messages ago.

First, Rust has lots of checks that C and assembly don't, and AI benefits from those checks. Then, a post about those checks are related to memory safety, not logic errors. Then, a post about whether that's a helpful comment. Finally, me pointing out that checks regarding types and memory errors aren't unique to Rust and there's tons of languages that could benefit.

Since you want to bring it back to the original article, here's a quote from the author:

    Is C the ideal language for vibe coding? I think I could mount an argument for why it is not, but surely Rust is even less ideal. To say nothing of Haskell, or OCaml, or even Python. All of these languages, after all, are for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.
It would seem that the author fundamentally misunderstand significant reasons for many of the languages he mentions to be the way that they are.

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#118

Post by omnicognate »

gitremote wrote: post #33

Software development jobs must be very diverse if even this anti-vibe-coding guy thinks AI coding definitely makes developers more productive. In my work, the bigger bottleneck to productivity is that very few people can correctly articulate requirements. I work in backend, API development, which is completely different from fullstack development with backend development. If you ask PMs about backend requirements, th…

> Software development jobs must be very diverse if even this anti-vibe-coding guy thinks AI coding definitely makes developers more productive.

As a Professor of English who teaches programming to humanities students, the writer has had an extremely interesting and unusual academic career [1]. He sounds awesome, but I think it's fair to suggest he may not have much experience of large scale commercial software development or be particularly well placed to predict what will or will not work in that environment. (Not that he necessarily claims to, but it's implicit in strong predictions about what the "future of programming" will be.)

[1] https://stephenramsay.net/about/

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#119

Post by geraneum »

epolanski wrote: post #103
gitremote wrote: post #33

Software development jobs must be very diverse if even this anti-vibe-coding guy thinks AI coding definitely makes developers more productive. In my work, the bigger bottleneck to productivity is that very few people can correctly articulate requirements. I work in backend, API development, which is completely different from fullstack development with backend development. If you ask PMs about backend requirements, th…

If AI doesn't make you more productive you're using it wrong, end of story. Even if you don't let it author or write a single line of code, from collecting information, inspecting code, reviewing requirements, reviewing PRs, finding bugs, hell even researching information online, there's so many things it does well and fast that if you're not leveraging it, you're either in denial or have ai skill issues period.

Not to refute your point but I’ve met overly confident people with “AI skills” who are “extremely productive” with it, while producing garbage without knowing, or not being able to tell the difference.

Re: If you're going to vibe code, why not do it in C?

#120

Post by burnt-resistor »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #64
gitremote wrote: post #33

Software development jobs must be very diverse if even this anti-vibe-coding guy thinks AI coding definitely makes developers more productive. In my work, the bigger bottleneck to productivity is that very few people can correctly articulate requirements. I work in backend, API development, which is completely different from fullstack development with backend development. If you ask PMs about backend requirements, th…

I have done both strict back-end, strict front-end, full stack, QA automation and some devops as well, I worked in an all Linux shop where we were encouraged by great senior devs to always strive for better software all around. I think you're right, it mostly depends on your mindset and how much you expose yourself to the craft. I can tackle obscure front-end things sometimes better than back-end issues despite hatin…

Hehe. In the "someone should make a website"™ department: using a crap tons of legacy protocols and plugins semi-interoperable with modern while offering legacy browsers loaded with legacy plugins something usable to test with, i.e.,

- SSL 2.0-TLS 1.1, HTTP/0.9-HTTP/1.1, ftp, WAIS, gopher, finger, telnet, rwho, TinyFugue MUD, UUCP email, SHOUTcast streaming some public domain radio whatever

- , , , XHTML, SGML

- Java , Java Web Start

- MSJVM/J++, ActiveX, Silverlight

- Flash, Shockwave (of course), Adobe Air

- (Cosmo) VRML

- Joke ActiveX control or toolbar that turns a Win 9x/NT-XP box into a "real" ProgressBar95. ;)

(Gov't mandated PSA: Run vintage {good,bad}ness with care.)

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