Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50? • Hacker News Board

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#91

Post by veemjeem » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:11 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #88

guard-of-terra wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this would do is a short-term depression of SF programmer wages coupled to short-term surge in worldwide programmer wages. Because guess what, smart guy in Ukraine was already employed there and when he moves the next guy coming to fill the gap will either cost more or be less smart. Programmer talent is sparse worldwide, not just in the Valley.

Programmer talent is sparse worldwide And yet, when I look around at the job postings in Canada, a job with requirements that go on endlessly tops out at about $80,000/year. Expect less if you are an average programmer. Such a low income, relative to what US-based companies are offering, doesn't really speak to a shortage in my mind. I admit, there could be some kind of survivorship bias here: I'm only seeing the low…

I'm guessing the payment scales depend on the cost of living in your area. They pay more in Silicon Valley compared to Toronto because a 1500 sqft single family home in SV is around $1M.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#92

Post by aiurtourist » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:11 PM UTC

xaxzaz wrote: post #6

I've often times felt guilty that this is almost exactly the reason why I program. I like programming but I also like the salary and benefits. I can then use my 5-9 time to do all the other things I like: cooking, working-out, hiking. That said, I recently founded a startup, where the work is more stressful and the pay is less and I'm hoping for it all to be worth it financially in a few years. This is often not the…

If financial independence is your only goal, you've stared a startup for the wrong reason.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#93

Post by lutusp » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:16 PM UTC

Just a few comments on a well-written article that makes some good points:

> No health or legal risks

On the contrary -- the health risk arises primarily because of the sedentary lifestyle. It's hard to imagine anything so hard on one's health and longevity prospects as sitting and typing all day.

As to legal risks, they're certainly on the upswing, as people who can't program try to steal the work of those who can, and as people try to take generic methods, known to all, and turn them into private property.

Apart from those quibbles, a nice article.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#94

Post by johansch » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:20 PM UTC

adgar2 wrote: post #83

skrebbel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A multi-billion dollar project. I can't really imagine that. Are those ever executed by a single company all on its own? Are they software-only? Do they exist outside NASA?

Microsoft and Apple both have multi-billion dollar projects. Edit: Google and Amazon likely don't, actually.

Microsoft yes (example: Windows Vista). The others... no. And that is a good thing, for them.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#95

Post by dmorgan » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:20 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #66

_yosefk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't the field extremely competitive now? The demand has been strong for a decade and a half; it seems like a lot of time. (I'm not sure I have an explanation myself, really; perhaps it's something innate in people and perhaps it's something about education, but the fact remains that the world still hasn't churned out enough programmers even though the incentives have been there for a long time. One possible exp…

Programmer is like the modern villager. Villagers grew food and made stuff and that's what you ever needed. The programmer writes code and everything in our civilization is already code or it will be. Therefore, programmer is a much broader occupation than almost any other. It's still a seller's marker because of that. Look at everything around you, and while there is at least one item that doesn't execute code insid…

>Programmer is like the modern villager. Villagers grew food and made stuff and that's what you ever needed. The programmer writes code and everything in our civilization is already code or it will be.

That's an extremely short-sighted way to look at it.

In fact, take out the non-programmers, and all programming will collapse -- literally come to a halt.

You know, guys like those that grow and transport out food, clean up the streets and the garbage, cook our meals, mine our coal, produce our energy, drill our petrol, build our houses, etc etc.

People seem to think that because he have the "information superhighway" (sic) we're, say, above actual highways. Where the fact is that without truckers and highways and oil and the like, the "information superhighway" will collapse in a few days.

In fact, you can take programming out of the picture, and the whole world will keep on turning, at least as well as it did in the sixties or fifties.

The reverse, not so much. Programming is indeed a pervasive but insignificant in the grand scheme of things addition to the workings of our society.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#96

Post by Karunamon » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:23 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #62

calinet6 wrote: post #52

"Programmers who can program at all - as in, print out a binary tree correctly" Strikingly succinct and useful benchmark, just sort of thrown in there like it was jam on toast. There are some tidbits of wisdom in this article, but overall it boils down to a life that has lost all meaning and passion and has succumbed to the lowest common denominator: money. True, maybe, but sad, really.

Many people spend years or decades moving from job to job and from career to career looking for happiness. Most of them don't find it until they learn that your job just isn't what makes you happy. "Do something you love" is a myth. Jobs are jobs because they involve a lot of crap people don't want to do. No one's going to find personal meaning by writing specs, or by cutting a beautiful design down to an ugly minimu…

>"Do something you love" is a myth.

As someone who is currently working his dream job, this statement couldn't be further from the truth.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#97

Post by guard-of-terra » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:25 PM UTC

koide wrote: post #2

If what's described is true: a) Tons of money to be made b) Tons of unmet demand Why the outsourcing market isn't growing as much as it should? There are plenty of places with more than capable programmers which are usually paid in peanuts not only when compared with SV, but when compared to people in the same country. That smells like a niche waiting to be disrupted. He who solves the trust and quality perception an…

"more than capable programmers which are usually paid in peanuts" Where does that happen? I have troubles imagining this.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#98

Post by grecy » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:28 PM UTC

Why are all these posts talking about 50?

Retirement in Canada just got pushed to 67, and I think most people expect it will go out to 69 before we actually get to retire (I'm 30 now).

All these titles should say "Do you really want to be doing this at 66"

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#99

Post by dmethvin » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:31 PM UTC

_yosefk wrote: post #46

dmethvin wrote: post #29

I'm one of those guys programming in my 50s. Technically my jobs involve project management and consulting as well but I still love programming the most. Saying that programming "requires little or no education" is from the perspective of either a naturally smart person or the Dunning–Kruger effect. Like any profession, there are some self-motivated people who can do the job effectively without formal education. Yet…

I said "little or no education" compared to other fields. I'm a grad school dropout, so my bet is that my CS education is above average for a working programmer. A hiring process considered "demanding" (such as Google's) is basically testing if you know the stuff they learn in the first year and a half of an undergraduate program. Contrast that to the amount of training and test-taking that a doctor must go through a…

In that case I think "little or no certification" would be more appropriate. It does seem kind of strange that doctors, lawyers, electricians, plumbers, and barbers all have to take tests to get into (and sometimes remain in) their professions, but a programmer can write the software for a missle system, voting machine, or power plant with no certification whatsoever.

Re: Do you really want to be making this much money when you're 50?

#100

Post by adgar2 » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:39 PM UTC

johansch wrote: post #94

adgar2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft and Apple both have multi-billion dollar projects. Edit: Google and Amazon likely don't, actually.

Microsoft yes (example: Windows Vista). The others... no. And that is a good thing, for them.

You're right about Google and Amazon, early posting on my part.

But I'd say the iPhone was easily a multi-billion dollar project.