Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#91

Post by MartinCron » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 1:10 AM UTC

arohner wrote: post #89

MartinCron wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less risky because it sends a clear signal to employees that if they're fired for being racist assholes, they don't have any real grounds for to sue for unlawful termination. Even groundless unlawful termination lawsuits are a pain in the ass to deal with. It's better to discourage them than to litigate them.

If they're crass enough to sue for unlawful termination after being racist, what makes you think 'sensitivity training' will make them not sue? (I'm not trying to be snarky, BTW, just trying to understand hiring law, and bad employees)

I think the idea is to let them know that they will almost certainly lose which acts as a deterrent suing in the first place.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#92

Post by waterlesscloud » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 2:11 AM UTC

arohner wrote: post #89

MartinCron wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less risky because it sends a clear signal to employees that if they're fired for being racist assholes, they don't have any real grounds for to sue for unlawful termination. Even groundless unlawful termination lawsuits are a pain in the ass to deal with. It's better to discourage them than to litigate them.

If they're crass enough to sue for unlawful termination after being racist, what makes you think 'sensitivity training' will make them not sue? (I'm not trying to be snarky, BTW, just trying to understand hiring law, and bad employees)

The training makes company policy crystal clear and makes it very difficult for any employee to later claim they were unaware of said policy.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#93

Post by r00fus » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 2:58 AM UTC

rickmb wrote: post #69

This isn't racism. This is bullying, using, amongst many other things, marginally racist remarks as a weapon. That kind of stuff is as much racism as tasteless jokes about wife-beating constitute actual domestic violence. This is clearly a very disfunctional and unhealthy work environment, but with the aggressively paranoid reaction to it is equally unhealthy and most of all, fails to address the actual problem. Afte…

Most racism is an directed form of bullying. When the attacker feels weaker, the result is passive aggressive otherwise it's plain just aggression.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#94

Post by mathattack » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:04 AM UTC

Racism or Bullying - either way props to the boss for firing 4 people over it. If you leave that unchecked, it destroys a corporate culture.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#95

Post by agateform » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 4:26 AM UTC

esperluette wrote: post #82

codenerdz wrote: post #39

I cant help but feel that this qu33riousity guys is coocoo. While I think that what he was subjected to is unacceptable, his rhetoric reminds me of conspiracy nutcases that said that US government played a role in the WTC tragedy: "And it’s not a matter of generalizing white people, rather it’s being real about the culture San Francisco creates. Other people of color, including some black people are in on it too, but…

It's sad but true that some members of a minority always find that it's in their personal best interest to be the "good" exemplar of a minority in the opinion of the majority. Think about women who enforce the patriarchy as so that they can be metaphorically patted on the head by men (Phyllis Schafly, Ann Coulter). It's extremely common.

Do you mean the Feminist meaning of patriarchy?(from wikipedia) ""The patriarchal construction of the difference between masculinity and femininity is the political difference between freedom and subjection."[27] In feminist theory the concept of patriarchy often includes all the social mechanisms that reproduce and exert male dominance over women."

Patriarchy Feminist theory basically mean women are victims, man have power over woman and are conspiring (conscious or unconscious) oppressors. It is a very toxic and sexist theory, it ignores mens issues and it's also an Apex fallacy. Just because the majority of people at the top are male it does not mean they represent the majority of man. Did you know that in USA women hold the majority of the vote?

However I agree that people should not be forced in to gender roles and maybe that is what you meant when you wrote Patriarchy.

>metaphorically patted on the head by men

The majority of men (including traditionalists) don't treat women like dogs. Traditionalist men even believe in sacrificing their lives to save womens lives. A lot of modern men also believe in that sacrifice.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#96

Post by barking » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 7:01 AM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #70

barking wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe people are more likely to perceive the behaviour of others towards them as racist, if they are racist themselves? That perhaps the accuser should be looked at as critically as the accused.

Maybe people are more likely to perceive the behaviour of others towards them as racist, if they are racist themselves? Really? The "I know you are, but what am I" defense?

OK I had to look that up to understand what you meant (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=i%20know%20yo...).

You're suggesting that my previous response is a total fail.

At the risk of my appearing to be totally thick, can I ask you to explain why?

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#97

Post by anu_gupta » Sat, Oct 06, 2012, 7:23 AM UTC

agateform wrote: post #95

esperluette wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad but true that some members of a minority always find that it's in their personal best interest to be the "good" exemplar of a minority in the opinion of the majority. Think about women who enforce the patriarchy as so that they can be metaphorically patted on the head by men (Phyllis Schafly, Ann Coulter). It's extremely common.

Do you mean the Feminist meaning of patriarchy?(from wikipedia) ""The patriarchal construction of the difference between masculinity and femininity is the political difference between freedom and subjection."[27] In feminist theory the concept of patriarchy often includes all the social mechanisms that reproduce and exert male dominance over women." Patriarchy Feminist theory basically mean women are victims, man hav…

> Traditionalist men even believe in sacrificing their lives to save womens lives. A lot of modern men also believe in that sacrifice.

No, they really don't. Or rather they may say they do, but when it comes it, then they don't. See the recent study of ship evacuations for proof, it's women and children last.

Re: Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

#98

Post by 23david » Sun, Oct 07, 2012, 8:19 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #73

rickmb wrote: post #69

This isn't racism. This is bullying, using, amongst many other things, marginally racist remarks as a weapon. That kind of stuff is as much racism as tasteless jokes about wife-beating constitute actual domestic violence. This is clearly a very disfunctional and unhealthy work environment, but with the aggressively paranoid reaction to it is equally unhealthy and most of all, fails to address the actual problem. Afte…

While I don't agree with your "this isn't real racism" premise, I agree that the dysfunctions probably run deeper than that. I'm reminded of Bob Sutton's great book "The No Asshole Rule". The actions outlined in the blog post are undeniably asshole behaviors, and shouldn't be tolerated in any civilized workplace, with our without the racial implications.

Thanks for the reference to Bob Sutton. I hadn't heard of his book before, and after some research I dug up some great info and articles.

http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/the_no_asshole_rule/ http://blogs.hbr.org/sutton/2007/03/why_i_wrote_the_no_assho... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-sutton/the-no-asshole-r...

The Kixeye CEO may have not intended to let things go this far, but from his remarks ( part 1: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jgntgj, part 2: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja ) he shows a stunning lack of empathy. One big red flag for me was how he doesn't say how he is planning to make amends with the black contractor and the black community. So it's pretty clear to me that Will Harbin is part of the problem here, and likely is an asshole himself. The company's investors and leaders should take this as a wake-up call and either demote or fire him. They won't reach their potential with 'asshole leadership' in place.

A fish rots from the head down.