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Bag of words, have mercy on us

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Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#41
Everyone is out here acting like "predicting the next thing" is somehow fundamentally irrelevant to "human thinking" and it is simply not the case.

What does it mean to say that we humans act with intent? It means that we have some expectation or prediction about how our actions will effect the next thing, and choose our actions based on how much we like that effect. The ability to predict is fundamental to our ability to act intentionally.

So in my mind: even if you grant all the AI-naysayer's complaints about how LLMs aren't "actually" thinking, you can still believe that they will end up being a component in a system which actually "does" think.

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#42
Title is confusing given https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag-of-words_model

But even more than that, today’s AI chats are far more sophisticated than probabilistically producing the next word. Mixture of experts routes to different models. Agents are able to search the web, write and execute programs, or use other tools. This means they can actively seek out additional context to produce a better answer. They also have heuristics for deciding if an answer is correct or if they should use tools to try to find a better answer.

The article is correct that they aren’t humans and they have a lot of behaviors that are not like humans, but oversimplifying how they work is not helpful.

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#43
post #41

Everyone is out here acting like "predicting the next thing" is somehow fundamentally irrelevant to "human thinking" and it is simply not the case. What does it mean to say that we humans act with intent? It means that we have some expectation or prediction about how our actions will effect the next thing, and choose our actions based on how much we like that effect. The ability to predict is fundamental to our abili…

The issue is that prediction is "part" of the human thought process, it's not the full story...

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#44
The defenders and the critics around LLM anthropomorphism are both wrong.

The defenders are right insofar as the (very loose) anthropomorphizing language used around LLMs is justifiable to the extent that human beings also rely on disorder and stochastic processes for creativity. The critics are right insofar as equating these machines to humans is preposterous and mostly relies on significantly diminishing our notion of what "human" means.

Both sides fail to meet the reality that LLMs are their own thing, with their own peculiar behaviors and place in the world. They are not human and they are somewhat more than previous software and the way we engage with it.

However, the defenders are less defensible insofar as their take is mostly used to dissimulate in efforts to make the tech sound more impressive than it actually is. The critics at least have the interests of consumers and their full education in mind—their position is one that properly equips consumers to use these tools with an appropriate amount of caution and scrutiny. The defenders generally want to defend an overreaching use of metaphor to help drive sales.

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#45
post #41

Everyone is out here acting like "predicting the next thing" is somehow fundamentally irrelevant to "human thinking" and it is simply not the case. What does it mean to say that we humans act with intent? It means that we have some expectation or prediction about how our actions will effect the next thing, and choose our actions based on how much we like that effect. The ability to predict is fundamental to our abili…

The issue is that prediction is "part" of the human thought process, it's not the full story...

> The issue is that prediction is "part" of the human thought process, it's not the full story...

Do you have a proof for this?

Surely such a profound claim about human thought process must have a solid proof somewhere? Otherwise who's to say all of human thought process is not just a derivative of "predicting the next thing"?

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#46
post #41

Everyone is out here acting like "predicting the next thing" is somehow fundamentally irrelevant to "human thinking" and it is simply not the case. What does it mean to say that we humans act with intent? It means that we have some expectation or prediction about how our actions will effect the next thing, and choose our actions based on how much we like that effect. The ability to predict is fundamental to our abili…

The issue is that prediction is "part" of the human thought process, it's not the full story...

And the big players have built a bunch of workflows which embed many other elements besides just "predictions" into their AI product. Things like web search, to incorporating feedback from code testing, to feeding outputs back into future iterations. Who is to say that one or more of these additions has pushed the ensemble across the threshold and into "real actual thinking."

The near-religious fervor which people insist that "its just prediction" makes me want to respond with some religious allusions of my own:

> Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

The point is that (as far as I know) we simply don't know the necessary or sufficient conditions for "thinking" in the first place, let alone "human thinking." Eventually we will most likely arrive at a scientific consensus, but as of right now we don't have the terms nailed down well enough to claim the kind of certainty I see from AI-detractors.

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#47
post #41

Everyone is out here acting like "predicting the next thing" is somehow fundamentally irrelevant to "human thinking" and it is simply not the case. What does it mean to say that we humans act with intent? It means that we have some expectation or prediction about how our actions will effect the next thing, and choose our actions based on how much we like that effect. The ability to predict is fundamental to our abili…

When you have a thought, are you "predicting the next thing"—can you confidently classify all mental activity that you experience as "predicting the next thing"?

Language and society constrains the way we use words, but when you speak, are you "predicting"? Science allows human beings to predict various outcomes with varying degrees of success, but much of our experience of the world does not entail predicting things.

How confident are you that the abstractions "search" and "thinking" as applied to the neurological biological machine called the human brain, nervous system, and sensorium and the machine called an LLM are really equatable? On what do you base your confidence in their equivalence?

Does an equivalence of observable behavior imply an ontological equivalence? How does Heisenberg's famous principle complicate this when we consider the role observer's play in founding their own observations? How much of your confidence is based on biased notions rather than direct evidence?

The critics are right to raise these arguments. Companies with a tremendous amount of power are claiming these tools do more than they are actually capable of and they actively mislead consumers in this manner.

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that prediction is "part" of the human thought process, it's not the full story...

And the big players have built a bunch of workflows which embed many other elements besides just "predictions" into their AI product. Things like web search, to incorporating feedback from code testing, to feeding outputs back into future iterations. Who is to say that one or more of these additions has pushed the ensemble across the threshold and into "real actual thinking." The near-religious fervor which people in…

I completely agree that we don't know enough, but I suggest that that entails that the critics and those who want to be cautious are correct.

The harms engendered by underestimating LLM capabilities are largely that people won't use the LLMs.

The harms engendered by overestimating their capabilities can be as severe as psychological delusion, of which we have an increasing number of cases.

Given we don't actually have a good definition of "thinking" what tack do you consider more responsible?

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#49
post #41

Everyone is out here acting like "predicting the next thing" is somehow fundamentally irrelevant to "human thinking" and it is simply not the case. What does it mean to say that we humans act with intent? It means that we have some expectation or prediction about how our actions will effect the next thing, and choose our actions based on how much we like that effect. The ability to predict is fundamental to our abili…

When you have a thought, are you "predicting the next thing"—can you confidently classify all mental activity that you experience as "predicting the next thing"? Language and society constrains the way we use words, but when you speak, are you "predicting"? Science allows human beings to predict various outcomes with varying degrees of success, but much of our experience of the world does not entail predicting things…

> can you confidently classify all mental activity that you experience as "predicting the next thing"? [...] On what do you base your confidence in their equivalence?

To my understanding, bloaf's claim was only that the ability to predict seems a requirement of acting intentionally and thus that LLMs may "end up being a component in a system which actually does think" - not necessarily that all thought is prediction or that an LLM would be the entire system.

I'd personally go further and claim that correctly generating the next token is already a sufficiently general task to embed pretty much any intellectual capability. To complete `2360 + 8352 * 4 = ` for unseen problems is to be capable of arithmetic, for instance.

Re: Bag of words, have mercy on us

#50
post #38
post #28

As usual with these, it helps to try to keep the metaphor used for downplaying AI, but flip the script. Let's grant the author's perception that AI is a "bag of words", which is already damn good at producing the "right words" for any given situation, and only keeps getting better at it. Sure, this is not the same as being a human. Does that really mean, as the author seems to believe without argument, that humans ne…

So a human is just a really expensive, unreliable bag of words. And we get more expensive and more unreliable by the day! There's a quote I love but have misplaced, from the 19th century I think. "Our bodies are just contraptions for carrying our heads around." Or in this instance... bag of words transport system ;)

I just came from the Pluribus sub-Reddit. I’ll take AI over that cohort any day.
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