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PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

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Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#31

Post by d1plo1d »

trentlott wrote: post #22
nnnnni wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of Reprap variants that print better than the Replicator 2 for less than half the price.

Examples?

The Prusa Mendel sells for $799 on Makergear and can print at 1/10 the layer height of a Replicator 2. Thats the same price as the Pandabot (well, give or take $1), the advantage of the Pandabot is that it auto-calibrates and is excessively easy to assemble.

Although the official spec lists a 100 micron layer height, technically, I see no reason why a Pandabot couldn't print at the same resolution as a Prusa Mendel. Having seen both a Pandabot and a Prusa Mendel in person the electronics and hot end are similar enough that there is really no reason they couldn't achieve the same 10 micron resolutions on the PandaBot.

Sources: - http://www.makergear.com/products/3d-printers - http://blog.reprap.org/2011/12/001-layer-height-on-prusa-men...

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#32

Post by wmf »

andyjsong wrote: post #27
nickpinkston wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HP actually has IP around 3DP and until recently sold Stratasys machines under their private label. I say recently because it was shown that HP sucked at selling them and ceded its territory back to Stratasys. Also - some companies (ZCorp / ProMetal) use HP print heads to deposit less viscous materials for powder bed 3D printers

So I went to the Stratasys site and saw that there entry level printer was $10k, would this be the equivalent of a Ferrari vs. a kit car conversion? Why doesn't Stratasys make a Honda Civic of 3D printers?

From their perspective, $10K probably is the Honda Civic of 3D printers. They probably see all the low-cost stuff as "toys" that aren't usable for "real work". It's just the innovator's dilemma part infinity.

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#33

Post by ghein »

tptacek wrote: post #28
anigbrowl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of people who aren't really your customer And you know this how? I've been surprised at the consistent hostility of some people on HN to innovating on price. This is the same mentality that led to the US car market going temporarily insane and assuming that everyone wants the biggest SUV possible.

That wasn't fair. Pricing so close to COGS that you can't sustainably deliver the product isn't price innovation, nor is pricing so low that COGS forces you to deliver an inferior product; the comment you're responding to took pains to spell out why this particular 3d printer price didn't make much sense. The consistent hostility towards low prices on HN is based on this site's manifest tendency to underprice things,…

Product Manager again.

Total units shipped is incredibly low in 3D printing such that there are very few economies of scale. A certain Brooklyn firm has shipped 13,000. Ever. They have massive share of total and annual global shipments, including the highest of high end industrial printers.

We think that the technology is ready to drive this to a seriously large audience. Our COGS benefits from using the global supply chain and designing for manufacturing. It also benefits from scale. Sperry-Burroughs used to hand assemble a few products, then the world changed.

We're not priced to hand assemble in Brooklyn and would never make money doing so. But there are other, very high quality and proven, options.

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#34

Post by ryanmacleod »

pxlpshr wrote: post #7

The video mentions they've only been working in the 3D printer world for less than a year. So now they know how to fix "all the problems" to make 3D printing available to the masses? The leadership page doesn't give me a lot of confidence in that blanket statement. Regular 2D printing isn't something that's been easy for most people after 20 years of modern computing. It's a toss up whether or not software, hardware,…

Architecture student here.

There is actually a large consumer base for a product exactly like this. I know many other architecture students that have spent more than the cost of a PandaBot (as well as months of hard work) building a RepRap printer to keep on their desk and use in studio. And we keep things (like models) far more fragile than this printer on our desks all the time.

Halfing the price of a comparable printer (MakerBot) is in fact a huge price difference (and therefore, a huge motivator for purchase) for people like students.

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#35

Post by d1plo1d »

andyjsong wrote: post #27
nickpinkston wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HP actually has IP around 3DP and until recently sold Stratasys machines under their private label. I say recently because it was shown that HP sucked at selling them and ceded its territory back to Stratasys. Also - some companies (ZCorp / ProMetal) use HP print heads to deposit less viscous materials for powder bed 3D printers

So I went to the Stratasys site and saw that there entry level printer was $10k, would this be the equivalent of a Ferrari vs. a kit car conversion? Why doesn't Stratasys make a Honda Civic of 3D printers?

To Stratasys $10k is probably already the Honda Civic of 3D printers.

To go with an entirely different analogy, Stratasys is the old, lumbering baron of 3d printing. Conversely, RepRap, Makerbot, Ultimaker, MakerGear, Type A and now Panda Robotics are all the agile, new kids who were raised on a healthy diet of open source. Having invaded the Barons lands they are now zipping around rearranging the Baron's fiefdom at 100km/h and generally trying every way of doing everything all at once. My bet is firmly on the new guys, how they'll divide the spoils once Stratasys has been finally overwhelmed by all this chaos is the bit I'm curious about.

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#36

Post by andyjsong »

d1plo1d wrote: post #35
andyjsong wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I went to the Stratasys site and saw that there entry level printer was $10k, would this be the equivalent of a Ferrari vs. a kit car conversion? Why doesn't Stratasys make a Honda Civic of 3D printers?

To Stratasys $10k is probably already the Honda Civic of 3D printers. To go with an entirely different analogy, Stratasys is the old, lumbering baron of 3d printing. Conversely, RepRap, Makerbot, Ultimaker, MakerGear, Type A and now Panda Robotics are all the agile, new kids who were raised on a healthy diet of open source. Having invaded the Barons lands they are now zipping around rearranging the Baron's fiefdom at…

This comment will probably get some flack, but it sounds like they need to get bought out by a PE firm and go through a massive reorganization. Layoff all the top management brass, keep engineers that have a low-cost printer in their homes and hire someone like Bre to keep things lean.

Otherwise, they will watch their market share erode until one of the scrappy startup kids get enough bank to buy them out for pennies on the dollar.

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#37

Post by TheAmazingIdiot » 

  1. What is your firmware based upon?
  2. What computer software do you use to assist PandaBot? Slic3r?
  3. Do you need a computer hooked up via USB to facilitate printing?
  4. Do you publish schematics and/or physical part dimensions for repair 
  and replacement?
  5. What makes your product better than a RepStrap?
  6. A MendelMax full kit costs $699 USD. The kit is complete with full build 
  instructions and fully repairable if/when something goes wrong. What makes 
  your printer better than this model?
  7. How do you handle inertial jerk when you have a partially printed model due 
  to the moving table?

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#38

Post by ghein »

TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #37

1. What is your firmware based upon? 2. What computer software do you use to assist PandaBot? Slic3r? 3. Do you need a computer hooked up via USB to facilitate printing? 4. Do you publish schematics and/or physical part dimensions for repair and replacement? 5. What makes your product better than a RepStrap? 6. A MendelMax full kit costs $699 USD. The kit is complete with full build instructions and fully repairable…

1&2 We are using available firmware and software with the prototype while we build our own versions ( fully respecting the licenses the community is using for different projects). We're building software and firmware that are properly paramaterized for our system and give great results - you need to get the exact fluid mechanics right for your hardware. But it will be totally hackable and you are more than welcome to roll your own g-code with your favorite tool or even pick your firmware.

3 We load files via USB but you don't need to keep the computer plugged in after a successful transfer

4 We're generally using off the shelf parts but it's a commercial shelf. Trade-off of quality, tolerances, capabilities. We feel that the improvements to the stability and reliability of our product are worth going in this direction.

5 We're building a tool to let people focus on designing and producing physical objects. Different design objective than kits. By not being a Rep* we get access to interesting components with very tight tolerances which will give users a wonderful experience in reliably producing objects.

6 We're shipping a manufactured product, it comes in 2 pieces to reduce shipping costs. It's a tool that plugs in and goes. Auto-calibration and the incredible rigidity really help make it "just work".

Again, it's a different focus from kits so different strengths and weaknesses. If you want to build your printer from scratch, we're not the right choice. If you want to be printing out of the box with no calibration, re-calibration, or learning all of the details of Slic3r or other tools, then we are the right choice. And then, if you want to explore Slic3r or optimal 3D material strategies without having to become a hardware/robotics guru, we are the right choice.

Lots of room for different people to focus on different things, or for people to have different tools for different projects.

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#39

Post by anigbrowl »

tptacek wrote: post #28
anigbrowl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of people who aren't really your customer And you know this how? I've been surprised at the consistent hostility of some people on HN to innovating on price. This is the same mentality that led to the US car market going temporarily insane and assuming that everyone wants the biggest SUV possible.

That wasn't fair. Pricing so close to COGS that you can't sustainably deliver the product isn't price innovation, nor is pricing so low that COGS forces you to deliver an inferior product; the comment you're responding to took pains to spell out why this particular 3d printer price didn't make much sense. The consistent hostility towards low prices on HN is based on this site's manifest tendency to underprice things,…

But Tom, what basis do you have for suggesting they can't sustainably deliver the product? I don't know whether this is the case, I'm waiting to find out. But I'm perplexed by the assumption that they can't, and thought the grandparent comment assumed its conclusions. I don't agree on the inferior product angle; that assumes someone else should define what the minimal acceptable functionality is.

I don't necessarily think the PandaBot is directly competitive with the Makerbot- I'm sure corners have been cut to achieve that low price. But I don't necessarily need everything that the Makerbot does. It seems to me that as a technology is refined, you have the choice of adding more features, or keeping more limited features and lowering the price - that's what I'm referring to as price innovation.

Consider that the Thing-o-matic was $1200 or so, and people were happy with that at the time of release (3q 2010, IIRC). So the new Markerbot is a lot better, but it's also nearly twice the price. The PandaBot is offering something similar but simpler for $800-ish, which doesn't seem wildly unrealistic to me given the 2-year interval. I can see from the Kickstarter page that it's more of a no-frills product - one which requires more user supervision and safety-awareness, for example - but the tradeoff is that it costs less. I'm not sure whether I'd buy one (since it would be more of a hobby than a tool purchase), but being under $1000 is a big factor in any purchase decision.

Re: PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

#40

Post by guelo »

pxlpshr wrote: post #7

The video mentions they've only been working in the 3D printer world for less than a year. So now they know how to fix "all the problems" to make 3D printing available to the masses? The leadership page doesn't give me a lot of confidence in that blanket statement. Regular 2D printing isn't something that's been easy for most people after 20 years of modern computing. It's a toss up whether or not software, hardware,…

Only $1,000 difference? Makerbot's Replicator 2 is approaching triple this price at $2200. Makerbot is moving upmarket into the semi-proffesional market and abandoning the hobbyist and student market leaving an opening for sub-thousand dollar robots like this one.
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