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Tom Stoppard has died

bbc.com

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Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#71

Post by MichaelBurjack »

zero_k wrote: post #35

My favourite quote from him: “Because children grow up, we think a child's purpose is to grow up. But a child's purpose is to be a child. Nature doesn't disdain what lives only for a day. It pours the whole of itself into the each moment. We don't value the lily less for not being made of flint and built to last. Life's bounty is in its flow, later is too late. Where is the song when it's been sung? The dance when it…

As a father of three amazing kiddos, what a wonderful sentiment stated so lucidly.

Thank you for sharing that quote.

Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#72

Post by brookst »

IAmBroom wrote: post #60
windowshopping wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See now while I love this play I don't find that exchange notable. It's very plain, no? The implication is that one thought the other was going to say something but he wasn't. This exact dialogue takes place in real life regularly. The alternative reading, where an entire exchange cleverly takes place without any substance, seems almost mistaken to me? In context it seems very clear it's "I thought you...[were going…

Yes, it's plain, banal, and even shallow; almost devoid of meaning. And there's genius in that. Who intentionally puts that in a play, without purpose? It's the antithesis of Chekhov's Gun.

Sometimes, when lots of other people see cleverness but you only see empty banality, sometimes it’s a good idea to give a second thought.

Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#73

Post by aa-jv »

IAmBroom wrote: post #62
aa-jv wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you that Germany doesn't have the intellectual prowess it once may have had, I don't think you can consider the Nobel prize a valid metric, personally. The Nobel prize has subverted itself many times over. While German academia was rebuilding itself, American academia was chasing clout - one side effect being that the Nobel prize is more of a carnival attraction than an academic accomplishment.

Judging validity of all Nobel prizes by something that isn't even an actual Nobel prize is a perverse logic.

> Germans would collect as many science Nobel Prizes as the British,

The person I responded to made this claim, not me. I don't personally rate the Nobel prize very highly at all, as a metric.

Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#74

Post by shawn_w »

dataviz1000 wrote: post #3
addaon wrote: post #2

I wish National Theatre would re-release the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead productions with Cumberbatch and Radcliffe in memoriam, either on NTatHome or in theatres...

During the offseason the players in the Oregon Shakespeare Festival did Hamlet one month and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead the next with all the same actors playing the same roles. Sad day.

That's a standard gimmick for troupes that do both plays.

Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#75

Post by IAmBroom »

brookst wrote: post #72
IAmBroom wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's plain, banal, and even shallow; almost devoid of meaning. And there's genius in that. Who intentionally puts that in a play, without purpose? It's the antithesis of Chekhov's Gun.

Sometimes, when lots of other people see cleverness but you only see empty banality, sometimes it’s a good idea to give a second thought.

Or you completely misunderstood my point.

At a surface read, it's banal.

In reality, it contains depth.

Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#76

Post by csixty4 »

brookst wrote: post #47
erulabs wrote: post #43

Rosencrantz: Is that southerly? Guildenstern: We came from roughly south. Rosencrantz: Which way is that? Guildenstern: In the morning, the sun would be easterly. I think we can assume that. Rosencrantz: That it's morning? Guildenstern: If it is, and the sun is over there for instance, that would be northerly. On the other hand, if it's not morning and the sun is over there, that would still be northerly. To put it a…

Rosencrantz: Do you think Death could possibly be a boat? Guildenstern: No, no, no... Death is "not." Death isn't. Take my meaning? Death is the ultimate negative. Not-being. You can't not be on a boat. Rosencrantz: I've frequently not been on boats.

Guildenstern: No, no, no — what you've been is not on boats.

I read this play for the first time last week and this exchange really stuck with me.

Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#77

Post by mock-possum »

brunpi wrote: post #53
mock-possum wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gets to decide whether they are men or not? Is it you? Why should you know better than them?

It's because they are male, obviously. "Man" is the word we use to describe an adult person who is male.

Ah but what if I don’t subscribe to your belief system?

‘Man’ js the word tradition taught you to describe an adult person who is male - but what does that mean, really? Is it a person with a penis? If a man’s penis is removed, what is he then? Prefer his genitals at birth, maybe? What if he’s born without a penis? Intersex people exist. Chromosomes perhaps? There are all sorts of extant combinations beyond XX and XY.

The real question you should be asking is, why does it matter? how does this belief in men and women serve you? It seems to me like your insistence in following this tradition is actually hurting you, not helping you, because it’s narrowing your understanding of your fellow humans, to the point where you can confidently say things like “it’s because they’re male obviously” as if that doesn’t make you look incredibly foolish by modern standards.

At the very least, you may want to consider keeping your belief in gender mythology to yourself.

Re: Tom Stoppard has died

#78

Post by brunpi »

mock-possum wrote: post #77
brunpi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they are male, obviously. "Man" is the word we use to describe an adult person who is male.

Ah but what if I don’t subscribe to your belief system? ‘Man’ js the word tradition taught you to describe an adult person who is male - but what does that mean, really? Is it a person with a penis? If a man’s penis is removed, what is he then? Prefer his genitals at birth, maybe? What if he’s born without a penis? Intersex people exist. Chromosomes perhaps? There are all sorts of extant combinations beyond XX and XY…

The idea that men can become women by self-decree is a niche ideological view. It's quite a stretch to call this "modern standards" when hardly anyone really believes this.

Your hypothetical male who lost his penis or was born with an underdeveloped one is clearly still male despite this. There is a misogynistic tradition going all the way back to Aristotle that women are merely deformed men, but in this day and age I hope we can move on from such ignorance.

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