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Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

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Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#111

Post by presentation »

exabrial wrote: post #20

We dodged a huge bullet in the US with this. We already pay _excessive_ amounts of federal income tax for extreme inefficiency, the vast majority of it simply being funneled into the pockets of the ultra wealthy.

Wondering where you think the extreme inefficiency is exactly - apparently Elon Musk fell on his face when he tried to root them out as part of DOGE.

If anything it seems inefficiencies tend to occur when people interfere with the government funding things, like CA high speed rail having their federal funding appear and disappear erratically depending on who's in power, throwing off all the construction plans.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#112

Post by itake »

Kirby64 wrote: post #109
itake wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it... but im just explaining why people are doing what they do: choosing to hold cash over higher risk investments. Lack of education IMHO is a huge part. Crypto has way more education around how to invest than equities investment. If people are investing, many are choosing crypto. > Frankly, investing in equities in your 20s and 30s is easily the best time to do it. You let the compounding of growth happen ove…

> Lack of education IMHO is a huge part. Crypto has way more education around how to invest than equities investment. If people are investing, many are choosing crypto. More education around investing in crypto? I think we must be exposed to some very different parts of the internet. Investing in boring index funds are very widely spread around these days. Might not be exciting, and I guess there isn’t really somethi…

probably bias sources but:

- https://finance.yahoo.com/news/almost-20-gen-z-investors-164... - https://www.gemini.com/blog/gemini-survey-finds-more-than-ha...

At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#113

Post by Kirby64 »

itake wrote: post #112
Kirby64 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lack of education IMHO is a huge part. Crypto has way more education around how to invest than equities investment. If people are investing, many are choosing crypto. More education around investing in crypto? I think we must be exposed to some very different parts of the internet. Investing in boring index funds are very widely spread around these days. Might not be exciting, and I guess there isn’t really somethi…

probably bias sources but: - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/almost-20-gen-z-investors-164... - https://www.gemini.com/blog/gemini-survey-finds-more-than-ha... At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life.

> At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life.

Buying the right lotto tickets will have a larger impact too, but that’s called gambling, not investing. As someone who has just invested in ETFs, 10 years has been plenty to more than double my investment. It moves the needle substantially.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#114

Post by clickety_clack »

itake wrote: post #112
Kirby64 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lack of education IMHO is a huge part. Crypto has way more education around how to invest than equities investment. If people are investing, many are choosing crypto. More education around investing in crypto? I think we must be exposed to some very different parts of the internet. Investing in boring index funds are very widely spread around these days. Might not be exciting, and I guess there isn’t really somethi…

probably bias sources but: - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/almost-20-gen-z-investors-164... - https://www.gemini.com/blog/gemini-survey-finds-more-than-ha... At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life.

Investing in the S&P 500 for 10 years will on-average double your money, and that’s inflation adjusted. Over 40 years, you 10x on average, again inflation adjusted.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#115

Post by mbesto »

ivankra wrote: post #63
mbesto wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not aware of any other country that taxes them like that (besides wealth/exit taxes), so maybe they're the world's first here! Real estate taxes. > not the yearly increase in wealth. Real estate taxes.

For real estate, yes, but it's a quite different type of asset with a stable value that (mostly) only goes up. What about stocks or crypto (the assets this new law targets)? They can have wild value fluctuations in a year. If your crypto or startup's options have +1M paper gain this year and turn worthless the next year, is it fair to ask people to cough up some 300-500k of real cash in tax?

> For real estate, yes, but it's a quite different type of asset with a stable value that (mostly) only goes up.

It's still a tax on wealth. So you just can't use this argument (the argument that we dont tax anything based on wealth and therefore is justification not to do it now).

> is it fair to ask people to cough up some 300-500k of real cash in tax?

I actually disagree that we should tax anything on asset value. Yes, RE is illiquid and thus has "stable" values. What's worse is that the value is tied to appraised values (and potentially government imposed caps) which you have no (or limited) control over.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#116

Post by mbesto »

hnburnsy wrote: post #96
mbesto wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not aware of any other country that taxes them like that (besides wealth/exit taxes), so maybe they're the world's first here! Real estate taxes. > not the yearly increase in wealth. Real estate taxes.

Not really, property taxes in the U.S. are revenue-driven (sometimes called “budget-driven”), not rate-driven. The taxing authority adds up how much money it needs, then apportions it based on property values.

Huh? You're talking about budgeted values for the payee, not the rate that an individual payer. I'm talking about the rate established for the payer, which is based on the value of your property. In absolute value terms I may pay more than my next door neighbor if my property is deemed to have a higher asset value. This would be no different if both my neighbor and I owned AAPL stock, but if I held more stock than him, I would owe more (theoretically) in taxes on that stock.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#117

Post by itake »

clickety_clack wrote: post #114
itake wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

probably bias sources but: - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/almost-20-gen-z-investors-164... - https://www.gemini.com/blog/gemini-survey-finds-more-than-ha... At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life.

Investing in the S&P 500 for 10 years will on-average double your money, and that’s inflation adjusted. Over 40 years, you 10x on average, again inflation adjusted.

> on-average double your money

yeah. that is my point: for many people, "double [your spare] money" means going from $1 to $2...

Tech (and finance) workers have always had a surplus of wages enabling a comfortable life and plenty left over for investment. Personally, my 'worst' year investing my wages is when I only saved 50%. Currently, I save 70% of my after-tax income. As a result, "double your money" is a very meaningful number.

But if your wages are closer to the average stagnating wage-growth that doesn't keep up with inflation, double $0 or double $1 isn't meaningful.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#118

Post by itake »

Kirby64 wrote: post #113
itake wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

probably bias sources but: - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/almost-20-gen-z-investors-164... - https://www.gemini.com/blog/gemini-survey-finds-more-than-ha... At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life.

> At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life. Buying the right lotto tickets will have a larger impact too, but that’s called gambling, not investing. As someone who has just invested in ETFs, 10 years has been plenty to more than double my investment. It moves the needle substantially.

Tech (and finance) workers have always had a surplus of wages enabling a comfortable life and plenty left over for investment. Personally, my 'worst' year investing my wages is when I only saved 50%. Currently, I save 70% of my after-tax income. As a result, "double your money" is a very meaningful number.

If your income is closer to average (and stagnating inflation), there isn't much money to double.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#119

Post by Kirby64 »

itake wrote: post #118
Kirby64 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the end of the day, investing in an ETF for 10 years isn't going to move the needle much. but catching the right crypto wave will have a larger impact on their life. Buying the right lotto tickets will have a larger impact too, but that’s called gambling, not investing. As someone who has just invested in ETFs, 10 years has been plenty to more than double my investment. It moves the needle substantially.

Tech (and finance) workers have always had a surplus of wages enabling a comfortable life and plenty left over for investment. Personally, my 'worst' year investing my wages is when I only saved 50%. Currently, I save 70% of my after-tax income. As a result, "double your money" is a very meaningful number. If your income is closer to average (and stagnating inflation), there isn't much money to double.

> If your income is closer to average (and stagnating inflation), there isn't much money to double.

When you’re in your 20s though, there doesn’t need to be a lot. You’ve got the magic of compound interest to work for you.

I’m sure you’ve heard the statistic, but $100/mo invested over 40 years is worth a million dollars. $100/mo isn’t particularly a lot.

Re: Netherlands – Capital Growth Tax and Capital Gains Tax for Box 3

#120

Post by seec »

itake wrote: post #117
clickety_clack wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investing in the S&P 500 for 10 years will on-average double your money, and that’s inflation adjusted. Over 40 years, you 10x on average, again inflation adjusted.

> on-average double your money yeah. that is my point: for many people, "double [your spare] money" means going from $1 to $2... Tech (and finance) workers have always had a surplus of wages enabling a comfortable life and plenty left over for investment. Personally, my 'worst' year investing my wages is when I only saved 50%. Currently, I save 70% of my after-tax income. As a result, "double your money" is a very me…

Yep that's pretty much it. And in France (I believe most of rich Europe as well), there are mandatory "social contribution" on capital gains which are collected directly by the banks. So if you don't have much money "working" for you, they will take a good part of whatever small gains you made.

So it doesn't go down, but the gains are so small it's kinda pointless. Of course, those who can save a lot every year get compounding benefits quite fast, but is a class that is becoming more rare every year passing.

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