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Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

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Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#151
post #114

The Monotype pricing change is brutal, but there’s a workaround. Derive new Japanese font families directly from public-domain sources. I’ve been working on doing exactly that. Reconstructing clean vector glyphs from old metal-type Japanese books. The quality of those prints is surprisingly high, and they include thousands of kanji in consistent style. With some new technological innovations and a reasonable amount o…

It's fascinating how different this challenge must be between Latin vs CJK.

How do you match up the scans with unicode entities? Human supervision and/or OCR? To what extent is the breadth and quality of OCR the limiting factor?

How do you define your target entity coverage?

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Creating type is an extremely difficult and skilled discipline and designers deserve to be compensated fairly. Sure, if you need a custom font, you can pay someone to create it. Once it exists, the creator has already been compensated fairly.

What a wild take. Might as well ask why anyone should pay for anything once it's been made. While it's possible to commission a custom font and many companies do eg. Apple, IBM, Airbnb, Bytedance, Vercel, Github, Mozilla etc. Some even make them open source. However it's not really a viable option for anyone other than the largest organisations as it's far more expensive and time-consuming than just getting a licence…

> Might as well ask why anyone should pay for anything once it's been made.

Nothing wild about it. That's simply the reality of intellectual work. Only the first copy need ever be paid for. That is the true cost of creation. The cost of all subsequent copies is approximately $0 with 21st century computer technology.

All intellectual work is information. All information is bits. All sequences of bits are numbers. All numbers already exist in the abstract world of mathematics. We merely find them. A 20 kiB picture is just a number with 49,321 decimal digits. Creating that picture is just a process that somehow finds the right digits.

We humans are merely interesting number generators. We are anti-RNGs. Once the number has been generated, copying it is trivial.

Intellectual property exists to establish artificial scarcity. It's not real, it's completely made up and of questionable effectiveness.

Payment only ever makes sense before creation. People should be paid for their labor before they create, not for copies of the end result. Selling copies makes no economic sense.

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those independent companies can be eventually bought by PE and turned into more bombs, though, right?

They indeed can but licensing on fonts from most companies is perpetual. Especially from the independent traditional ones. So its possible they might be bought in future but the new owner can't change license retroactively. Also there is very high chance they already got offer from HGGC and simply refused it, because some similar notably independent type foundries got bought recently.

What is a foundry?

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess designing a font for a language with 2100 different characters is probably a hassle. The ~2000 is the official count taught in schools, but the actually "commonly" used number in literature is around ~3000. And you actually want more than that, because people's names can use weird kanji which are used nowhere else. On the other hand, the vast majority of kanji are actually composed of a limited set of "subc…

Has anybody ever actually implemented an algorithmically composed kanji font? Because it seems like a hugely complicated undertaking. There are rules of thumb for how characters are composed, but getting something aesthetically pleasing out of the end result is more an art than a science. Even Korean Hangul, which is way simpler, has all sorts of funky kerning rules.

Yes. Arphic, for instance, calls them radical-based fonts.

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#156
post #114

The Monotype pricing change is brutal, but there’s a workaround. Derive new Japanese font families directly from public-domain sources. I’ve been working on doing exactly that. Reconstructing clean vector glyphs from old metal-type Japanese books. The quality of those prints is surprisingly high, and they include thousands of kanji in consistent style. With some new technological innovations and a reasonable amount o…

It's fascinating how different this challenge must be between Latin vs CJK. How do you match up the scans with unicode entities? Human supervision and/or OCR? To what extent is the breadth and quality of OCR the limiting factor? How do you define your target entity coverage?

Great questions — and you’re absolutely right that Latin vs. CJK is effectively two different universes in terms of reconstruction.

1. Latin vs. CJK differences Latin glyphs are structurally simple: limited stroke vocabulary, mostly predictable modulation, and relatively low topological variation. Once you can recover outlines and stroke junctions accurately, mapping to Unicode is almost trivial.

That can be done with standard OCR methods for Latin.

CJK is the opposite. Each character is effectively a miniature blueprint with dozens of micro-decisions: stroke order, brush pressure artifacts, serif style, shape proportion, and even regional typographic conventions. Treating it like Latin “but bigger” doesn’t work. So the workflow for CJK has extra normalization steps and more constraints, especially when reconstructing consistent glyph families rather than one-offs.

From a simple perspective, CJK has many characters with disconnected pieces that are still part of the same character.

2. How we match scans to Unicode entities We don’t rely on conventional OCR at all. OCR engines are optimized for reading text, not recovering the underlying design intent. Our process is closer to forensic glyph analysis — reconstructing stable structural signatures, then mapping those signatures to references.

This ends up being a hybrid: • deterministic structural matching • limited supervised correction when ambiguity exists • and zero reliance on any off-the-shelf OCR models

It’s not “OCR first, match later.” It’s “reconstruct the letterpress structure, then Unicode becomes a lookup.” OCR quality literally doesn’t limit us because OCR isn’t part of the critical path.

3. What determines coverage Coverage is defined by what we can physically access and reconstruct cleanly. For Latin, coverage is straightforward. For CJK, coverage is shaped by: • typeface completeness in the source material • the consistency of impression depth • survivability of fine strokes in early printings • and the practical question of how many thousand characters the original font designer actually cut

There’s no need for the entire Unicode set per book. The historical font only ever covered a finite subset. It is unfortunate that every book doesn't use every glyph, but not catastrophic because we can source many public domain books from the same era and eventually find enough characters matching the style.

In short: Latin is an engineering challenge. CJK is an archaeological one. OCR is not a bottleneck because we don’t use it. Coverage follows the historical material, not Unicode completeness.

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, private equity firms are such life-sucking vampires. Buy a great company, suck as much cash as they can before discarding the empty carcass.

Is there a point to these private equity firms besides sociopathically ruining everything? Why are they allowed to exist?

The point is to make everything fungible, even you. How else will america reinvent slavery?

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#158
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google fonts has about 2000 fonts with about 8000 total variations I believe. I pretty much refuse to believe that you can’t find the font you want there. Finding it is the hard part. I saw multiple font discussions today. These are just variations on letters, there was some interesting stuff in the past but it’s over now. There should be no ip left, just remove all protections. The world won’t be worse off.

When I select 'Japanese' on fonts.google.com the number of fonts drops from 1901 families down to 50. Selecting 'Hiragana and Katakana' raises the number to 81. That's still a lot of fonts, but it's not 2000. I guess designing a font for a language with 2100 different characters is probably a hassle.

Out of those, only Morisawa's BIZ UD, Sandoll's IBM Plex and Adobe's Noto families are of outstanding quality.

Motoya is also a reputable foundry. FONTDASU also, I guess. And Google's Zen.

But those are all text faces! The only display families are a few freebies from Fontworks which do not cover a lot of design range.

So, yes, hardly 2000.

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#159
post #86

Ah Monotype. Knew before reading the article it would be them. Their whole MO is buying up smaller type foundries, massively increasing the licensing fees and shaking down the previous customers. They send in auditors, demand to see traffic data and threaten fines. Happened to me twice now. Creating type is an extremely difficult and skilled discipline and designers deserve to be compensated fairly. However Monotype’…

It's not Monotype but HGGC, private equity firm from Palo Alto that has bought Monotype and every other type foundry they can get their hands on. They likely have strategy to completely corner the market and then turn things up. But as I wrote here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45973261#45977078 Besides open source fonts there still are stable high quality independent foundries that are safe to use as they wou…

They should definitely look at moving to Public Utility and become owned by government.

Re: Japanese game devs face font dilemma as license increases from $380 to $20k

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to some deeper 60 minutes-like documentary about it. This perhaps might actually spark some legislation change

Doubtful. The call is coming from inside the White House.

and congress. and scotus.

owned lock and stock by billionaires

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