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Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

prog21.dadgum.com

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Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#181
post #60

57, programming for 33 years with hardly a day off, and having more fun than ever. My motivation? It's not about the technology, the tools, the apps, the business, the customers, or even the money, although any of those can provide plenty of motivation. And believe it or not, it's not even about the happy dance feeling I get when something I built works for the first time. It's about the achievements of those who use…

This sounds pretty depressing to me. You're building the software that allows others to retire while you're a cog in someone else's wheel for another 33 years. Why not build your own achievements?

Why is retirement worth pursuing at all?

If you do something that gives you no kicks and only pays your bills, then yes, throwing away that nasty but necessary source of subsistence feels liberating.

But if you enjoy what you're doing every day and have no problem getting up in the morning for that, you only want more, and "retirement" feels like having your favorite toy taken from you.

Imagine someone saying: "Mr. Tesla, when are you planning to retire from your burdensome and soul-crushing experimentation and retire to enjoy some front porch whistling?"

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#182
post #102
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it is about achievements of your paying customers using your technology business's apps you wrote using tools at your hand. Simply put you are happy that you have created something useful to others or there is something more?

That's pretty much it. I'm one of those guys who comes to Hacker News, reviews what others have built, and immediately thinks 2 things: - That is so cool! - So what? Like most others, I love playing around with widgets and technology just for fun and to see what happens. But the satisfaction from this is usually short lived. I liken playing around with techology to running around and having lots of good sex with stra…

I build things that can help others have sex with strangers. I can quite clearly remember the first time someone came up and told me they were getting married because of my spare-time project.

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#183
post #60

57, programming for 33 years with hardly a day off, and having more fun than ever. My motivation? It's not about the technology, the tools, the apps, the business, the customers, or even the money, although any of those can provide plenty of motivation. And believe it or not, it's not even about the happy dance feeling I get when something I built works for the first time. It's about the achievements of those who use…

Completely agree. I've turned down many offers to move in to management positions over the years. People start giving me weird looks until I explain to them that coding is my passion, and I want to do it until the day I die. Any position that takes me away from coding is pretty much an automatic no.

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#184
Whether I'm still programming when I'm 50 (currently 33, programming for about 20 years), will depend on whether I have the same appetite for being wrong that I do today. To constantly program, you have to constantly learn, and to constantly learn, you have to constantly be confronted with the fact that you're doing it wrong. Not using the right API, the right language, the latest technique, etc. The best programmers are the best learners.

The author here doesn't seem to be particularly passionate about learning from his battles with Hard Problems. I don't blame him, because it's hard and painful to be in a constant battle. But for my part, I hope that I still have a taste for the pain of learning when I'm 50; the day I stop wanting to learn is the day I become bored & boring.

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#185
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds pretty depressing to me. You're building the software that allows others to retire while you're a cog in someone else's wheel for another 33 years. Why not build your own achievements?

Why is retirement worth pursuing at all? If you do something that gives you no kicks and only pays your bills, then yes, throwing away that nasty but necessary source of subsistence feels liberating. But if you enjoy what you're doing every day and have no problem getting up in the morning for that, you only want more, and "retirement" feels like having your favorite toy taken from you. Imagine someone saying: "Mr. T…

I agree with your retirement point but Telsa didn't exactly get satisfaction from the achievements of Edison while working for him.

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#186
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're presuming an awful lot in that analysis there. Besides, who is not a cog in some wheel or other? In civilized countries, there is nobody who is at the top of all hierarchies, no King. It's a pejorative with no bite if it applies to all.

I just find it sad people write themselves off as never being rich or running their own business. There are 16 year olds making 6 figures writing their own iphone apps yet people view their only alternative to programming is moving to middle management.

Not everybody wants to be rich. Would it hurt anything if I had more money? Of course not, but I have everything that I need in life and I'm not that materialistic.

The man has been doing a job that he loves for 30+ years. Having had to work in places I hated to 'pay the bills' enough times in my life to grow weary of it, I understand the value of working on a good team with people I like and respect, doing what I love.

As the adage goes: Get a job doing what you love to do, and you'll never work a day in your life. Startups are fine and dandy, but trust me when I tell you, they're a ton of WORK. Even serial entrepreneurs will tell you that it's taxing, and not for everyone. I for one would be much happier nestled up to a keyboard, solving a problem than I would be doing many of the things one needs to do to make a startup viable.

In summation, everybody's priorities are not the same as yours, and I'd wager that you could stand to learn that lesson sooner than later.

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of my experience has been in product-focused teams, so there is a good mixture of R&D and polish work. The company as a whole has to spend time convincing customers that our product is useful, but the development team is able to focus on actually making a useful product. I can see how what you're saying could be a much bigger problem in a project-focused organization (or if you're working on a product that isn't…

My version of "values software" is that it be mission-critical. If it breaks, we're going to be chatting at 2 AM and testing a patch at 3, because we'd lose vast sums of money or customers by waiting until after breakfast. I met my favorite manager turning around a shop like this. Most software is utter garbage because everyone knows better than to actually rely on it and nothing bad happens to incompetent people mai…

Just making heads roll is not going to magically improve software. You can keep firing your teams but if there are other issues like unrealistic deadlines, bad process you are going to get bad output even from good people; all firing will achieve is churn.

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#189
Programming, by itself, the mechanics of it, isn't something that I find stimulative enough to derive long-term enjoyment.

I think the author is right in pointing out that there's an ugly side to programming that includes bugs, bad API's, bad tools, bad documentation, etc.

This is what I have come to term "programmer on programmer violence". We certainly can't blame anyone else for these issues.

This I don't enjoy.

Not to single them out --because EVERYONE has these issues-- but you look at the bullshit you have to deal with when doing iOS programming and, yes, it can be down-right demoralizing. Horrible documentation, an IDE that looks more like an iTunes-styled toy than a professional development system, bugs, bugs!, no feedback, huge delays in fixing problems, etc.

Again, this isn't just about Apple, as nearly every system I've worked on over the years has some kind of bullshit that you have to deal with, like it or not.

This, I do not enjoy.

That's why, when justified, I've always gone for projects where I can "own" all of the code. Two typical cases are FPGA-based projects where you start with a blank slate of sorts and develop it into a useful signal processing subsystem. Or, embedded systems where I've had the chance to roll my own RTOS from scratch. These projects are fun. And you don't have to deal with other people's bullshit, laziness, incompetence and technical baggage.

These projects I really enjoy.

The other side of this question is: If you didn't program, what would you do?

I am an odd duck. I am equally at home designing multi-gigahertz digital circuits, programming embedded systems, FPGA signal processors, iOS apps, workstation apps, websites, doing mechanical design and even running a CNC shop. I've been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to learn tons of disciplines through hours-upon-hours of hard-work and dedication. I've enjoyed every minute of it.

What I have not enjoyed --and I'll try not to get too political here-- is when your efforts are affected or even destroyed by external --political-- forces. I recently had to close down a beautiful electronics manufacturing operation that took me fifteen years to build. Typical story: Started in the garage. Worked my ass off. Learned a ton of stuff I didn't know. Worked some more. Grew it to a 15 employee company in a 10,000 square foot building with top-notch manufacturing equipment. That's the good side of the story.

While I was busy doing this, fucking idiots, otherwise known as politicians, where busy meddling with free markets and passing laws and regs that would, ultimately, cause the economic implosion in 2008. My customers couldn't finance their purchases (this was B-to-B in a mostly leased-equipment environment) and orders went to zero or nearly zero instantly. There's a lot more to it, but that's the basics. At one point no option remained but to fire everyone and shut it down.

How does this relate to the "Would you want to be doing this at 50?" question?

Be careful about doing something or falling in love with something that external forces can seriously affect, damage or take away. For me I'll generalize and call this "manufacturing". No, I don't want to be in manufacturing any more. Not now, not when I am 50. It's a shit business in the US and, between our politicians and what's going on in China, it is getting destroyed a little more every day. Here's a case of having invested fifteen years of my life into something that the government destroyed. I did not destroy it. None of my actions caused the economic downturn. None of my employees or my customers caused it. It was government policy that allowed millions of people making $50K a year to buy $500,000 homes they could not afford. And so it went.

The software industry, as fucked-up as it can feel from time to time, can have a lot more isolation from these issues. That's not to say that it isn't affected by economic ebbs and flows, it is.

There's a fundamental difference between the nature of a software business and, say, a manufacturing business. At any given time I had to have one to two million dollars in inventory, tools and equipment (parts, assemblies, raw materials, manufacturing equipment, tools, infrastructure) in order to be a small manufacturer. And, when things go bad, this infrastructure is sitting there, right above your head, ready to squash you, ready to kill you off unceremoniously. It can happen almost literally overnight.

Software is different in that infrastructure is minimal and there is no real inventory investment. You can do software from your bedroom and build a nice lifestyle business or million dollar venture. Most importantly, software is incredible in that you can pivot overnight. You can be doing children's educational apps one day and a real-time process monitoring system the next. This allows for great security and potential stability for years and years. This is a huge advantage and, yes, this is something that would be desirable to have in your life at fifty and beyond.

Re: Do You Really Want to be Doing this When You're 50?

#190
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty much it. I'm one of those guys who comes to Hacker News, reviews what others have built, and immediately thinks 2 things: - That is so cool! - So what? Like most others, I love playing around with widgets and technology just for fun and to see what happens. But the satisfaction from this is usually short lived. I liken playing around with techology to running around and having lots of good sex with stra…

I build things that can help others have sex with strangers. I can quite clearly remember the first time someone came up and told me they were getting married because of my spare-time project.

Link please ?
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