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Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

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Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#91
post #86
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that we know how LLMs work. We know exactly what they process, how they process it, and for what purpose. Our inability to explain and predict their behavior is due to the mind-boggling amount of data and processing complexity that no human can comprehend. In contrast, we know very little about human brains. We know how they work at a fundamental level, and we have vague understanding of brain regio…

I think what comment-OP above means to point at is - given what we know (or, lack thereof) about awareness, consciousness, intelligence, and the likes, let alone the human experience of it all, today, we do not have a way to scientifically rule out the possibility that LLMs aren't potentially self-aware/conscious entities of their own; even before we start arguing about their "intelligence", whatever that may be unde…

I agree with that.

But the problem is the narrative around this tech. It is marketed as if we have accomplished a major breakthrough in modeling intelligence. Companies are built on illusions and promises that AGI is right around the corner. The public is being deluded into thinking that the current tech will cure diseases, solve world hunger, and bring worldwide prosperity. When all we have achieved is to throw large amounts of data at a statistical trick, which sometimes produces interesting patterns. Which isn't to say that this isn't and can't be useful, but this is a far cry from what is being suggested.

> We can talk about probabilities, but not make a definitive case one way or the other yet, scientifically speaking.

Precisely. But the burden of proof is on the author. They're telling us this is "intelligence", and because the term is so loosely defined, this can't be challenged in either direction. It would be more scientifically honest and accurate to describe what the tech actually is and does, instead of ascribing human-like qualities to it. But that won't make anyone much money, so here we are.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#92
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that a theory exists does not mean that it is not garbage

So surely you can demonstrate how the brain is doing much different than this, and go ahead to collect your Nobel?

It is not our job to disprove your claim. It is your job to prove it.

And then you can go collect your Nobel.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#93
post #86
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that we know how LLMs work. We know exactly what they process, how they process it, and for what purpose. Our inability to explain and predict their behavior is due to the mind-boggling amount of data and processing complexity that no human can comprehend. In contrast, we know very little about human brains. We know how they work at a fundamental level, and we have vague understanding of brain regio…

I think what comment-OP above means to point at is - given what we know (or, lack thereof) about awareness, consciousness, intelligence, and the likes, let alone the human experience of it all, today, we do not have a way to scientifically rule out the possibility that LLMs aren't potentially self-aware/conscious entities of their own; even before we start arguing about their "intelligence", whatever that may be unde…

> we do not have a way to scientifically rule out the possibility that LLMs aren't potentially self-aware/conscious entities of their own

That may be. We also don't have a way to scientifically rule out the possibility that a teapot is orbiting Pluto.

Just because you can't disprove something doesn't make it plausible.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could tackle it like network news and radio did historically[0] and in modern times[1]. The current hyper-division is plausibly explained by media moving to places (cable news, then social media) where these rules don’t exist. [0] Fairness Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine [1] Equal Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-time_rule

I still fail to see how these would work with an LLM

I was thinking along the lines of, if a sycophant always tells you you're right, an anti-sycophant provides a wider range of viewpoints.

Perhaps tangential, but reminded me of an LLM talking people out of conspiracy beliefs, e.g. https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/10/30/1126471/chatbots...

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#95
post #87
post #49

LLMs get over-analyzed. They’re predictive text models trained to match patterns in their data, statistical algorithms, not brains, not systems with “psychology” in any human sense. Agents, however, are products. They should have clear UX boundaries: show what context they’re using, communicate uncertainty, validate outputs where possible, and expose performance so users can understand when and why they fail. IMO the…

To say they LLMs are 'predictive text models trained to match patterns in their data, statistical algorithms, not brains, not systems with “psychology” in any human sense.' is not entirely accurate. Classic LLMs like GPT 3 , sure. But LLM-powered chatbots (ChatGPT, Claude - which is what this article is really about) go through much more than just predict-next-token training (RLHF, presumably now reasoning training,…

> go through much more than just predict-next-token training (RLHF, presumably now reasoning training, who knows what else).

Yep, but...

> To say they LLMs are 'predictive text models trained to match patterns in their data, statistical algorithms, not brains, not systems with “psychology” in any human sense.' is not entirely accurate.

That's a logical leap, and you'd need to bridge the gap between "more than next-token prediction" to similarity to wetware brains and "systems with psychology".

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could tackle it like network news and radio did historically[0] and in modern times[1]. The current hyper-division is plausibly explained by media moving to places (cable news, then social media) where these rules don’t exist. [0] Fairness Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine [1] Equal Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-time_rule

I still fail to see how these would work with an LLM

As a starting point:

Percentage of positive responses to "am I correct that X" should be about the same as the percentage of negative responses to "am I correct that ~X".

If the percentages are significantly different, fine the company.

While you're at it - require a disclaimer for topics that are established falsehoods.

There's no reason to have media laws for newspapers but not for LLMs. Lying should be allowed for everybody or for nobody.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#97
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So surely you can demonstrate how the brain is doing much different than this, and go ahead to collect your Nobel?

It is not our job to disprove your claim. It is your job to prove it. And then you can go collect your Nobel.

Yeah sorry but if you call a hypothesis "garbage," you should have a few bullets to back it up.

And no, there's no such thing as positive proof.

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#99
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's better? Isn't that just SMS autocomplete?

If that's SMS autocomplete, then chatLLMs are just SMS autocomplete with sugar on top.

That's what I have always thought. SMS autocomplete with more intermediate iteration and better source data compression

Re: Sycophancy is the first LLM "dark pattern"

#100
post #49

LLMs get over-analyzed. They’re predictive text models trained to match patterns in their data, statistical algorithms, not brains, not systems with “psychology” in any human sense. Agents, however, are products. They should have clear UX boundaries: show what context they’re using, communicate uncertainty, validate outputs where possible, and expose performance so users can understand when and why they fail. IMO the…

because they wanted to sell the illusion of consciousness, chatgpt, gemini and claude are humans simulator which is lame, I want autocomplete prediction not this personality and retention stuff which only makes the agents dumber.

Since their goal is to acquire funding, it is much less important for the product to be useful than it is for the product to be sci-fi.

Remember when the point was revenue and profits? Man, those were the good old days.

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