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UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

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Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#181

Post by LorenPechtel »

pbiggar wrote: post #171
ben_w wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno for sure, but I'd suggest that mentioning Israel when it's the UK doing it, it might possibly look a bit like shoe-horning in a capital-A-Agenda. The UK doesn't really have much of a good history on the topic of listening to political dissent from within. The Sex Pistols comes to mind, and the Winter of Discontent, and the anti-Iraq-war march, and the Troubles, and police kettling a few decades back, and a bike…

Because there are huge protests in the UK at the moment for Palestine, which led them to "proscribe" the group Palestine Action. Then everyone (correctly) freaked out about civil liberties, and you can now see videos of grannies being arrested by the UK police for having an "i support Palestine Action" sign multiple times a week.

The thing is such groups are foreign manipulation.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#182

Post by LorenPechtel »

willahmad wrote: post #123
belorn wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious conflict is old enough to gone through every kind of modern and non-modern ideology, including freedom of speech and humans rights. Why would the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, which has been ongoing since late 19th century, be a major driver in west ideology? It is not a suddenly adaptation of authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights. Die Gedanken sind frei demonstrates that people been fighting f…

I can give you many reasons, but I am afraid my comment will be flagged. Some of them: * Israel is losing support across the world, because now it can't control the narrative, before it was able, people thought journalism exist, now we see it doesn't, and we are witnessing 2 different narratives in the media vs social networks * EU and US politicians took money from relevant lobby entities (or as we should call it: b…

Israel is losing support because Iran is so good at controlling the narrative. Basically all reporting from Gaza is effectively terrorist controlled. Simple test: every single example shown of someone starving was actually of a medical nature. Since they couldn't find an actual starving person to point a camera at why do you think any existed?

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#184

Post by LorenPechtel »

happymellon wrote: post #147
dfawcus wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their initial statement the day of (or after) the action at the RAF base was something like: "disabled aircraft using paint and crowbars" Which even if they didn't use crowbars, then would seem to require the turbines be inspected for alignment and physical damage.

> disabled aircraft using paint and crowbars Is that "terror"? Besides, why not prosecute them for their actions, why proscribe the organisation as a terrorist one, while at the same time ignoring groups who commit much more violent offenses (such as the one given) and concentrate on prosecuting "personal responsibility"?

Because if you stir up enough hate some will act on it. You can't hope to control stuff like this by personal responsibility.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#185

Post by LorenPechtel »

piltdownman wrote: post #33
willahmad wrote: post #2

It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone. Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel. It’s truly shameful to see such developments.

In Ireland opposition to the ongoing Genocide in Palestine is a wholly secular and humanitarian concern, divorced entirely from any correlation with race, religion, ethos or creed - despite agitators attempts to label it to the contrary. We are, however, unique in Western Europe in this regard - but it is not a mono-culture and the reasons are very contextual. While Germany is not an advocate of genocide in any sense…

You mean the Ireland that wanted to redefine "genocide" so they could call the war genocide? Thus the government that knew it was not genocide.

Sorry, but war in urban areas is extremely ugly. That does not make it genocide.

As for apartheid South Africa--look at the reality. Their revolution was jumping from the frying pan to the fire. Just because the new oppressors were of the same skin color doesn't make them not oppressors.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#186

Post by SilverElfin »

aranw wrote: post #70

There is probably a legitimate basis for some powers against actual foreign intelligence operations. But the proposals in the article defining "subversion" to include environmental activism, independence movements, or criticism of UK policy show how quickly these things expand beyond their original scope. The Terrorism Act was meant to exclude domestic activists but two decades later it has been used against protest…

It’s not just the use against protest groups but selective use of it, that makes this extra bad. From the article:

> The risk is magnified by the racist and colonial legacy of Britain’s intelligence and policing institutions, whereby ‘loyalties’ and ‘foreign influence’ are racially coded terms. It is clear who the state thinks may constitute an agent of ‘foreign power’. Hall acknowledges the risk of “putting certain nationalities under the spotlight or appearing to question their loyalties”, but this is brushed over by the alleged extraordinary threat of national security risk.

This type of abuse of powers is already becoming normalized in America. For example, Governor Abbott of Texas and other politicians from right-leaning states have explicitly condemned Sharia Law and Islam, and are taking various actions to marginalize those communities. The recent incident with an Afghan national has further radicalized the right.

I can see how Sharia Law has no place in a democratic constitutional republic, but Christianity shares many of the same issues as Islam in terms of supremacist tendencies. And many on the right have no issue openly claiming that America is a Christian nation, and advocate for puritanical integration of their religion into law. This gets no condemnation from the right, and I doubt they’ll use their powers to stop the push for theocracy.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#188

Post by js8 »

tremon wrote: post #129
js8 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a protofascist phrase, part of the problems we have is people adopting this worldview, that life has to be hard in order to create "good men". It's used to defend rightwing social darwinism. If anything, history goes the other way around. Fascism ("strong men") comes from good times, as a reaction. They create authoritarianism and discrimination ("bad times"), which slowly liberalizes and equalizes (gives rise t…

How exactly did you get to the conclusion that fascism needs "strong men"? The current US regime has nothing but the weakest, most fearful men clutching to power. You really think that Trump's call to execute senator Kelly comes from a position of strength? Your current bad times came from a few decades of weak men letting their fear and hatred (and greed) guide their vote -- strong men had very little to do with it.…

"How exactly did you get to the conclusion that fascism needs "strong men"?"

Fascists (and protofascist advocates of social darwinism) do think that! Whether they actually are or not "strong men" (what does it even mean?) is immaterial to that saying.

I disagree with the saying. Even your formulation. Hardship doesn't breed discipline, and prosperity doesn't lead to complacency. There are many disciplined people who have good and prosperous life, and also, why is being disciplined more important than good life? It's authoritarian and backwards.

For example, being homeless (hardship) doesn't make one disciplined. Most likely, it will make one into an alcoholic.

Hardship is horrible and we should universally reject it.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#189

Post by jansper39 »

Maken wrote: post #116
yadaeno wrote: post #113

In 2023, the number of people arrested for online comments: UK (12,183), Belarus (6,205), Germany (3,500), China (1,500). How do people in the UK defend this? I consider myself a liberal and to defend this government is a level of hypocrisy so beyond the pale. Am I being reactionary here? Are things actually not that bad in the UK?

Given the election forecasts, people in the UK doesn't support at all the current government nor its policies. And the answer seems to be to suppress any criticism while waiting for the next election cycle.

Given that we have shows on the state broadcaster which criticise the government, there truly isn't a shadowy force supressing it amongst the population.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#190

Post by [deleted] »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #181
pbiggar wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are huge protests in the UK at the moment for Palestine, which led them to "proscribe" the group Palestine Action. Then everyone (correctly) freaked out about civil liberties, and you can now see videos of grannies being arrested by the UK police for having an "i support Palestine Action" sign multiple times a week.

The thing is such groups are foreign manipulation.

[deleted]
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