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Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

x11libre.net

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Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#91

Post by dijit »

basscomm wrote: post #90
dijit wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> the main reason I liked computers was because we were all equals on the internet You must have had access to a different internet than I did. That is not and has never been true. The only way for everyone to be 'equal on the internet' (whatever that means) is to throw away or disregard everything that makes each of us unique, and all that leaves us with is a homogeneous beige sludge.

I’m sure it’s no irony to you - That right now. I’m reading your comment as if we are entirely equals no matter what the circumstances of your background or whatever job you have.

The only thing I know about you is that you call yourself, “basscomm” and unless I go digging (something that I couldn’t have done in the era of the BBS) then I’d have no way of judging your character before reading the words that you speak.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#93

Post by amiga386 »

mort96 wrote: post #80
amiga386 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, rather, they've collectively come to the conclusion that brownfield development sucks and greenfield development rules. Which is true, if you're a voluntary developer. It's so much fun to play in new developments, and be involved in making history (that some other sucker will maintain in future) rather than maintaining someone else's past glories. Unfortunately, this means for third-party developers and user…

It seems like you're mixing up your dislike for some of the technical decisions made in Wayland (some of which I share, FWIW) with some weird conspiracy theory about how Freedesktop's main mission is to argue with developers.

It's more a lament. It used to be that no matter how crazy GNOME got, all GNOME-specific apps still worked in vague harmony with KDE apps, Motif apps, etc., because the common substrate was X11, and backwards-compatibility was a key concern. Coupled with FDO trying to bring more harmony and standards (XDG), times were good.

But FDO seems to have morphed into the replace-X11-with-Wayland club, or perhaps more cynically I could say Red Hat/IBM and Canonical, who are paying the Xorg / Wayland developers, want returns on their investments sooner rather than later.

I despair at how unfit Wayland is to replace X11, but the big guns are going to force its adoption anyway. People who wrote X11 applications will be compelled to rewrite all their work too, or their users will have to use them in the locked down X11 emulator that can't do anything more than Wayland lets it do, which will make some X11 applications become fundamentally useless, e.g. xwd will not capture your screen.

As an example of why I think this is bad, I'd highlight we're still seeing intense ideological fights on basic capabilities, today. We're rushing into replacement while even the basics aren't settled. IMO, people like Sebastian Wick don't feel the need to yield an inch to backwards compatibility, and Wayland to them is all about these greenfields that they get to control - by fighting on bug reports, or refusing to implement protocols. This is what we're all about to be dropped into.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#94

Post by mort96 »

amiga386 wrote: post #93
mort96 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you're mixing up your dislike for some of the technical decisions made in Wayland (some of which I share, FWIW) with some weird conspiracy theory about how Freedesktop's main mission is to argue with developers.

It's more a lament. It used to be that no matter how crazy GNOME got, all GNOME-specific apps still worked in vague harmony with KDE apps, Motif apps, etc., because the common substrate was X11, and backwards-compatibility was a key concern. Coupled with FDO trying to bring more harmony and standards (XDG), times were good. But FDO seems to have morphed into the replace-X11-with-Wayland club, or perhaps more cynicall…

> or perhaps more cynically I could say Red Hat/IBM and Canonical, who are paying the Xorg / Wayland developers, want returns on their investments sooner rather than later.

Here's the weird vague conspiracy posting again. What exactly do you think Red Hat, IBM and Canonical's desired "return on investment" is with regard to Wayland, other than just a more polished desktop that works better for most people?

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#95

Post by NaomiLehman »

hagbard_c wrote: post #20
komali2 wrote: post #2

Seems interesting but unfortunately might be a bit political? > It's explicitly free of any "DEI" or similar discriminatory policies. Complaining about DEI is a marker for a specific ideology. I see this and think great, a project of people who want to be allowed to "just crack jokes" but then get super defensive when they get called out on it. It also makes me instantly suspect that their ejection from the project f…

Being free of DEI (et. al.) is a good thing, it is just sad that something like that is a noteworthy policy. It comes down to stating that you don't care whether contributors happen to be left- or right-handed: well, duh, of course you don't care and it would be silly to insist on having 'equal handedness representation' as a policy for a project.

et al. should refer to people, not things

"It comes down to stating that you don't care whether contributors happen to be left- or right-handed: well, duh, of course you don't care and it would be silly to insist on having 'equal handedness representation' as a policy for a project."

that's how DEI works in X11?

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#96

Post by ri0t »

HeckFeck wrote: post #47
snowram wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh huh, he could have just said "PRs are welcome" then. This is a window manager, no need to be weird by being this specific.

It's an abortive attempt at parody. Could've just said "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog" and we could at least enjoy the throwback.

Yo, thanks for the throwback [1] XD

[1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f8/Interne...

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#97

Post by gjsman-1000 »

komali2 wrote: post #81
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI = Not political Anti-DEI = Political That’s not a fair standard. Both are politics.

I'm not sure I agree, a DEI policy could easily be about de-politicizing a work place by e.g. cracking down on racially insensitive jokes. Whereas anti-DEI is all about politicizing people's race or gender or whatever.

It’s literally the oldest trick in politics: Call your side the apolitical one.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#98

Post by amiga386 »

mort96 wrote: post #94
amiga386 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more a lament. It used to be that no matter how crazy GNOME got, all GNOME-specific apps still worked in vague harmony with KDE apps, Motif apps, etc., because the common substrate was X11, and backwards-compatibility was a key concern. Coupled with FDO trying to bring more harmony and standards (XDG), times were good. But FDO seems to have morphed into the replace-X11-with-Wayland club, or perhaps more cynicall…

> or perhaps more cynically I could say Red Hat/IBM and Canonical, who are paying the Xorg / Wayland developers, want returns on their investments sooner rather than later. Here's the weird vague conspiracy posting again. What exactly do you think Red Hat, IBM and Canonical's desired "return on investment" is with regard to Wayland, other than just a more polished desktop that works better for most people?

Red Hat have been funding Wayland since its birth. Its main goal was not to be "more polished", but rather to ditch 30 years of backwards compatibility (which some might see as cruft), re-architect for a "modern system" (i.e. Linux-specific features), and assume it should offer better performance -- which I accept does matter, especially if you're selling OSes for laptops or tablets running on batteries. If Red Hat succeed in getting Wayland to displace X11, they gain another moat (as they already did with systemd vs initd, PulseAudio vs ALSA, and so on)

Initially, Wayland was an option, unsupported. Next step was offering Wayland as a supported option alongside X11. This is the expensive part, where their release testing and support has to cover both systems simultaneously! The sooner they ditch X11 and start saying WONTFIX to bugs and glitches, the sooner they save money!

I'm sure they're aware of just how much of the software they ship does / doesn't work with Wayland, because users file bug reports. At some point, they've decided that _this_ release is the cutover, Wayland is sufficient, e.g. there's only 20,000 open bugs against it compared to 80,000. I don't know the actual number or metrics they're using, but it worries me given how many things I know don't work for me, today which is why I use Xorg (not that I'm a paying Red Hat customer); they are not waiting for zero bugs and perfect compatibility with existing software before making it your only choice.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#99

Post by mort96 »

amiga386 wrote: post #98
mort96 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or perhaps more cynically I could say Red Hat/IBM and Canonical, who are paying the Xorg / Wayland developers, want returns on their investments sooner rather than later. Here's the weird vague conspiracy posting again. What exactly do you think Red Hat, IBM and Canonical's desired "return on investment" is with regard to Wayland, other than just a more polished desktop that works better for most people?

Red Hat have been funding Wayland since its birth. Its main goal was not to be "more polished", but rather to ditch 30 years of backwards compatibility (which some might see as cruft), re-architect for a "modern system" (i.e. Linux-specific features), and assume it should offer better performance -- which I accept does matter, especially if you're selling OSes for laptops or tablets running on batteries. If Red Hat s…

What do you mean by a "moat"? Surely Wayland works on non-RedHat operating systems?

Either your conspiracy theory makes absolutely no sense, or you're completely incapable of expressing it.

Re: Xlibre is a fork of the Xorg Xserver with lots of code cleanups

#100

Post by amiga386 »

mort96 wrote: post #99
amiga386 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red Hat have been funding Wayland since its birth. Its main goal was not to be "more polished", but rather to ditch 30 years of backwards compatibility (which some might see as cruft), re-architect for a "modern system" (i.e. Linux-specific features), and assume it should offer better performance -- which I accept does matter, especially if you're selling OSes for laptops or tablets running on batteries. If Red Hat s…

What do you mean by a "moat"? Surely Wayland works on non-RedHat operating systems? Either your conspiracy theory makes absolutely no sense, or you're completely incapable of expressing it.

Snap and AppArmour work on non-Ubuntu operating systems but it's Canonical who pay for their continued development and derive the most benefit from them.

If Red Hat directly employ the main developers of Wayland and/or its most popular compositors and/or KDE/GNOME developers, they can then win customers for having better support for, and for having more access to land changes into these softwares, even if they're F/OSS adopted by other distros too.

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