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UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

netpol.org

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Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#91

Post by snarf21 »

aranw wrote: post #70

There is probably a legitimate basis for some powers against actual foreign intelligence operations. But the proposals in the article defining "subversion" to include environmental activism, independence movements, or criticism of UK policy show how quickly these things expand beyond their original scope. The Terrorism Act was meant to exclude domestic activists but two decades later it has been used against protest…

This is classic "think of the children" backdoors; whether in the legislation or enforcement or literal backdoors. Politicians know that no one is going to publicly come out and say a law to "protect" children shouldn't be passed.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#92

Post by intended »

Theres so many times I've written a comment, only to delete it on HN.

Not because of being afraid of government censorship, but because of the sheer futility of fighting peoples faith and outmoded ideas of how our market place of ideas works.

Counter speech, is NOT working. "the best ideas rise to the top" is untrue. We don't have an information economy, we have a content economy. Its the equivalent of the junk food era, just for content.

Governments around the world are going to enact speech controls. Voters are clamoring for it. Its going to eventually be a disaster.

I also do not think that there is going to be any effective opposition, if people keep showing up to battle lines drawn in the 90s and 2000s.

If you want a market place of ideas, you have to figure out how to ensure its a FAIR market place. Not a place where you pit regular folk against corporate PR teams, information teams, and behemoths of all kinds.

And for those holding out hope for decentralized solutions (Mastodon, Bluesky): These have a chance, but there is no solution to moderation labour and costs.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#93

Post by 0x1064 »

viraptor wrote: post #45
dvt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is becoming so partisan, it's starting to get on my nerves. The bill text is here[1]. It's extremely benign and the article linked, in fact, argues against it's own straw-man, found in another cited article[2]: > Yet, another way to view ‘cumulative’ or repeated protests is as sustained public action for justice, solidarity and freedom. So yes, if you interpret some random bill amendment in whatever way favors you…

> So yes, if you interpret some random bill amendment in whatever way favors your side, That is how laws often get interpreted. It gives the decision to a police officer. Do you think the police officer will ever make a decision which does not favour their side?

Police officers don't interpret the law, the courts do.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#96

Post by delichon »

intended wrote: post #92

Theres so many times I've written a comment, only to delete it on HN. Not because of being afraid of government censorship, but because of the sheer futility of fighting peoples faith and outmoded ideas of how our market place of ideas works. Counter speech, is NOT working. "the best ideas rise to the top" is untrue. We don't have an information economy, we have a content economy. Its the equivalent of the junk food…

Counter speech is an often weak and ineffective response. It's principle advantage is in being less bad than every other option.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#97

Post by LightBug1 »

dvt wrote: post #26
foldr wrote: post #15

I can’t find any mainstream news source corroborating the claim that the government has imminent plans to introduce new legislation on the basis of the review mentioned in the article. If you google “hall independent review state threats”, nothing much turns up.

HN is becoming so partisan, it's starting to get on my nerves. The bill text is here[1]. It's extremely benign and the article linked, in fact, argues against it's own straw-man, found in another cited article[2]: > Yet, another way to view ‘cumulative’ or repeated protests is as sustained public action for justice, solidarity and freedom. So yes, if you interpret some random bill amendment in whatever way favors you…

Considering what is happening to the Palestine Action protestors right now in the UK, your waiving away of concerns is hard to read. Give an inch and they (current, or future governments) are given more scope to attempt to take a mile through interpretation or overreach.

- Broad discretionary powers

- Vague thresholds

- Pre-emptive justification

- Lack of neutral limits (time, geography, number of events)

- Expansion of police control over public assembly

Your post to waive away concerns as partisan or alarmist is either an intentionally bad act or, sorry, naive.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#98

Post by tim333 »

intended wrote: post #92

Theres so many times I've written a comment, only to delete it on HN. Not because of being afraid of government censorship, but because of the sheer futility of fighting peoples faith and outmoded ideas of how our market place of ideas works. Counter speech, is NOT working. "the best ideas rise to the top" is untrue. We don't have an information economy, we have a content economy. Its the equivalent of the junk food…

I think you be overestimating how great things were without a marketplace of ideas. "Perfect is the enemy of good" and all that. What is the better system you'd prefer if you limit yourself to real systems that have been tried out?

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#100

Post by zug_zug »

dvt wrote: post #26
foldr wrote: post #15

I can’t find any mainstream news source corroborating the claim that the government has imminent plans to introduce new legislation on the basis of the review mentioned in the article. If you google “hall independent review state threats”, nothing much turns up.

HN is becoming so partisan, it's starting to get on my nerves. The bill text is here[1]. It's extremely benign and the article linked, in fact, argues against it's own straw-man, found in another cited article[2]: > Yet, another way to view ‘cumulative’ or repeated protests is as sustained public action for justice, solidarity and freedom. So yes, if you interpret some random bill amendment in whatever way favors you…

Well in america we had some "disruptive protests" (e.g. rodney king race riots) which were fundamental drivers of fixing systemic injustices in racial equality.

In fact, perhaps most progress toward justice required "disruption," and that's a bargain price to pay.

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