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Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

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Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#101

Post by data-ottawa »

JustFinishedBSG wrote: post #68
hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

There’s just no way to stop cheating client side despite what devs love to think. But server side anti cheat is much harder and requires more work; it’s much simpler to just install spyware / rootkits on the client and call it a day.

I think it’s an organization accountability issue.

Why would a company pay for anti cheat infrastructure when they can outsource it to some company and blame them if there are cheaters or upset users? Windows is the status quo too, so it’s very easy to point to everyone else when justifying your choice to the execs.

It would be great if steam deck+box start costing studios quantifiable amounts of money that can be used to justify fixing this instead of outsourcing and hand waving.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#102

Post by __alexs »

Levitz wrote: post #62
__alexs wrote: post #34

It's funny that game makers make a fuss about anti-cheat not working on Linux but then publish Switch versions of their games. That platform has almost zero security and is commonly emulated with cheats even in multiplayer these days.

It's a numbers issue. How often do people encounter cheaters while playing Switch games online?

Often because of cross play.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#103

Post by tete »

Well, that's just silly. Hook up a Raspberry Pi as your keyboard, mouse input and video output and all the anti-cheat fails. Same (largely) for VMs, same for many emulators.

And if nothing works you can always build a robot pushing mouse, buttons, etc.

Of course you can raise the bar, but if anything has been shown it's that cheating is not something that anyone has been able to prevent yet.

In many situations you can also interfere on the packet level. Of course maybe you need to extract some key, but in many situations that's not exactly hard. And then you can hook something into network.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#104

Post by kimos »

tete wrote: post #103

Well, that's just silly. Hook up a Raspberry Pi as your keyboard, mouse input and video output and all the anti-cheat fails. Same (largely) for VMs, same for many emulators. And if nothing works you can always build a robot pushing mouse, buttons, etc. Of course you can raise the bar, but if anything has been shown it's that cheating is not something that anyone has been able to prevent yet. In many situations you ca…

The cheating isn’t just about input speed or accuracy though. It’s about seeing around corners or having knowledge about other things in the game that you can’t see on the screen.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#105

Post by jamesnorden »

Arainach wrote: post #70
SkiFire13 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSGO has actual humans watch replays to determine whether people were cheating, it's called overwatch. As can be seen, it doesn't actually stop cheating, at most it ensures that blatant ones are banned after the fact already happened.

You'll never see cheats banned in real time - that provides an enormous amount of data to cheat developers to allow them to quickly learn to evade your detection. Bans after the fact in large batches are the only sustainable way to go.

You see cheaters banned in real time in Valorant, and the match is canceled, at least you used to.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#106

Post by huflungdung »

j-bos wrote: post #48
__alexs wrote: post #34

It's funny that game makers make a fuss about anti-cheat not working on Linux but then publish Switch versions of their games. That platform has almost zero security and is commonly emulated with cheats even in multiplayer these days.

This. Even kernel level anti-c-spyware can't stop a cheap vision model hokked to a mouse, see youtube for examples from simple auto input up to full on elctromuscular stimulation.

[dead]

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#107

Post by kimos »

mcv wrote: post #98
hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

Reliable anticheat is serverside. Clientside anticheat sounds like a fool's errand to me. You need to control the client, so that means the user cannot be in control of their own computer, which is contrary to the idea of Linux.

It works on Windows by essentially rooting the machine. MS holds control of a bunch of stuff because they hold the signing keys. It’s fundamentally incompatible with open source.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#108

Post by embedding-shape »

j-bos wrote: post #48
__alexs wrote: post #34

It's funny that game makers make a fuss about anti-cheat not working on Linux but then publish Switch versions of their games. That platform has almost zero security and is commonly emulated with cheats even in multiplayer these days.

This. Even kernel level anti-c-spyware can't stop a cheap vision model hokked to a mouse, see youtube for examples from simple auto input up to full on elctromuscular stimulation.

Based on the latest report from Dice/EA/BF6, seems indeed like they're detecting hardware-based cheating as well: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2807960/view/4972134...

Although who knows, they might be outright lying about that just to scare cheaters, but I tend to default to assuming what they're saying is more or less true.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#109

Post by amarant »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #61
__alexs wrote: post #34

It's funny that game makers make a fuss about anti-cheat not working on Linux but then publish Switch versions of their games. That platform has almost zero security and is commonly emulated with cheats even in multiplayer these days.

what multiplayer (esports) game that can run on switch ???? fornite???? its not gonna be main playerbase

From the top of my head: Rocket league, Splatoon.

I'm sure there are others, but those are the 2 I play

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#110

Post by tete »

mcv wrote: post #98
hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

Reliable anticheat is serverside. Clientside anticheat sounds like a fool's errand to me. You need to control the client, so that means the user cannot be in control of their own computer, which is contrary to the idea of Linux.

Yes and no. I agree the only thing that can be reliable is server side.

However that means that anything based on reaction times and such is impossible to protect against (under reasonable conditions). At the end of the day you can always have a robot sitting at your desk. But there is steps to that. You can have something that highlights enemies, etc., you can have something that controls keyboard and mouse (maybe inside a VM, so you don't need hardware) and so on. You can reverse engineer packet encryption in a debugger (in most situations) and have something on the network messing with stuff and so on.

So in that regard, yes you can prevent everything you can prevent on the server, but you cannot prevent every sort of cheating on the server.

Everything that has rounds basically can be prevented (other than again a bot playing).

Everything that is complex to automate is better, but might just make cheating more "worthwhile".

The other thing you can do on the server is "dumb cheat" detection. Eg. the odds of someone being consistently as good at a game and such. Statistics like that is widespread and doesn't need any change on the client.

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