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UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

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Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#71

Post by brushfoot »

sph wrote: post #4
willahmad wrote: post #2

It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone. Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel. It’s truly shameful to see such developments.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” History, just like everything else in Nature, is cyclical.

If this obnoxious and seemingly ubiquitous platitude were actually true, then torture would be a moral duty. Enforced poverty would be a moral duty. Governments would be obligated to regularly arrange mass starvations for their citizens.

I don't believe it. Personally, I think spiritual weakness and religious corruption are more likely culprits -- and not necessarily the type of spirituality or religion that you might be thinking of.

Either way, "good times" is a dangerous place to put the blame. It relieves us of responsibility for our own catastrophes (it was the good times' fault), and it makes us suspicious of prosperity and happiness.

Good times are not evil. We don't need to shun them, provided we keep strengthening the better angels of our nature.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#72

Post by piltdownman »

dvt wrote: post #26
foldr wrote: post #15

I can’t find any mainstream news source corroborating the claim that the government has imminent plans to introduce new legislation on the basis of the review mentioned in the article. If you google “hall independent review state threats”, nothing much turns up.

HN is becoming so partisan, it's starting to get on my nerves. The bill text is here[1]. It's extremely benign and the article linked, in fact, argues against it's own straw-man, found in another cited article[2]: > Yet, another way to view ‘cumulative’ or repeated protests is as sustained public action for justice, solidarity and freedom. So yes, if you interpret some random bill amendment in whatever way favors you…

The argument - and wholly plausible prediction being made - is that these changes lay the groundwork for a legal definition of ‘subversion’ that could prioritise ideology over conduct, providing the state with a broader arsenal to classify any political dissent as a security risk.

This is ALREADY in play with the proscribing of Palestine Action, and subsequent arrest of protestors on Terrorism charges. They are absolutely spot-on in their conclusion that, "These developments reveal a state increasingly concerned with defending its own legitimacy that is weaponising security itself to shield power from accountability."

The potted history of Shabana Mahmood is a grotesquely cynical exemplar of this relatively new phenomenon.

In 2014, a backbench Labour MP named Shabana Mahmood lay on the floor of her local Sainsbury’s in protest against the sale of products made in illegal Israeli settlements. A week later, she spoke to crowds at a Free Palestine protest in Hyde Park, of the “compassion and humanity expressed for the people of Gaza … from every race and every religion.”

Mahmood is now the UK Home Secretary, and gets to decide if the more than 2,000 people arrested for alleged support of Palestine Action – mostly for holding placards stating: “I oppose genocide, I support Palestine Action” – will face criminal trial.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/nov/26/ban-on-pales...

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#73

Post by narrator »

willahmad wrote: post #2

It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone. Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel. It’s truly shameful to see such developments.

I just asked AI what the thousands of arrests for social media posts so far are for and it didn't say anti-semetic content. It said it's largely targeted at anti-immigrant, gender-critical, and being mean to politicians comments. Israel is the "woke right" line these days though, and something the "woke left" and "woke right" can both agree on hating.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#74

Post by vogon_laureate »

jimnotgym wrote: post #58
JetSetWilly wrote: post #41

[flagged]

In your view, is it right to categorise PA alongside Al Quaida?

Given that the Palestine Action co-founder said just one day after the Oct 7 massacre: "When we hear the resistance, the Al-Aqsa flood, we must turn that flood into a tsunami of the whole world."

Yes.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#75

Post by foldr »

piltdownman wrote: post #72
dvt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is becoming so partisan, it's starting to get on my nerves. The bill text is here[1]. It's extremely benign and the article linked, in fact, argues against it's own straw-man, found in another cited article[2]: > Yet, another way to view ‘cumulative’ or repeated protests is as sustained public action for justice, solidarity and freedom. So yes, if you interpret some random bill amendment in whatever way favors you…

The argument - and wholly plausible prediction being made - is that these changes lay the groundwork for a legal definition of ‘subversion’ that could prioritise ideology over conduct, providing the state with a broader arsenal to classify any political dissent as a security risk. This is ALREADY in play with the proscribing of Palestine Action, and subsequent arrest of protestors on Terrorism charges. They are absol…

But what changes specifically are we talking about? The amendment that dvt linked to doesn’t have to do with labeling dissenting movements as subversive. It’s still rather unclear to me which specific piece of pending legislation (if any!) the article is referring to.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#76

Post by piltdownman »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #67
jimnotgym wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your view, is it right to categorise PA alongside Al Quaida?

Yes. They are both groups that only exist to commit violence against people to further their political aims. They may differ in how extreme they are, but the core of it is they are violent and we should have absolute zero tolerance against such groups.

I mean the opening statements of the KC for the accused perfectly refutes such nonsensical claims.

As Raza Husain KC told the court - “There are reasons of profound importance as to why, in the 32 executive orders that have been made adding organisations to proscribed lists, no direct action civil disobedience organisation appears...Such proscription is repugnant to the tradition of the common law and contrary to the European convention on human rights.”

“The Defendant has deployed this most repressive of regimes against PA, notwithstanding that, on her own evidence, only four out of hundreds of its actions are even capable of meeting the definition of serious property damage.”

“The decision to proscribe PA is an unprecedented and disproportionate interference with articles 9, 10 and 11 [freedom of thought, expression and protest].

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/nov/26/ban-on-pales...

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#77

Post by piltdownman »

foldr wrote: post #75
piltdownman wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument - and wholly plausible prediction being made - is that these changes lay the groundwork for a legal definition of ‘subversion’ that could prioritise ideology over conduct, providing the state with a broader arsenal to classify any political dissent as a security risk. This is ALREADY in play with the proscribing of Palestine Action, and subsequent arrest of protestors on Terrorism charges. They are absol…

But what changes specifically are we talking about? The amendment that dvt linked to doesn’t have to do with labeling dissenting movements as subversive. It’s still rather unclear to me which specific piece of pending legislation (if any!) the article is referring to.

It's on the back of Jonathan Hall KC and Government Announcements in the recent past following the Palestine Action proscription - e.g. the UK Government recently saying it would amend sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 to further impose conditions on public protests and assemblies.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-police-powers-to-prot...

The changes to the law would allow police officers to consider the cumulative impact of protest when deciding whether or not they are lawful, meaning they could potentially re-route or totally shut down protest they believe could cause serious disruption to local communities.

The Netpol argument suggests that the upcoming annual review of national security legislation is likely to expand the protest-related clauses of the National Security Act in a similar fashion - providing the groundwork for a legal definition of ‘subversion’ that could prioritise ideology over conduct.

This seems to be mainly based on Hall’s ‘Independent Review of State Threats and Terrorism‘, published in May 2025, and his his recent review of the Sentencing Bill, published in late October 2025.

https://terrorismlegislationreviewer.independent.gov.uk/wp-c...

https://terrorismlegislationreviewer.independent.gov.uk/wp-c...

He has been sabre-rattling in the UK media since May in an effort to drum up support - whilst simutaneously playing up to the far-right agitators by supporting 'anti-woke' figureheads like Graham Linehan and his anti-trans agitation.

""I am thinking about the measures that may one day be needed to save democracy from itself. What do I mean? I am referring to counter-subversion"

https://news.sky.com/story/britain-may-have-to-resort-to-ant...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/21/jonathan-hall-kc...

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#78

Post by soulofmischief »

philipallstar wrote: post #38
willahmad wrote: post #2

It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone. Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel. It’s truly shameful to see such developments.

> Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel. It's not sudden. The West's hate speech laws have been coming for ages. Anyone silly enough to put that much enforcement over speech into play cannot now complain that it's being used against people they like.

This US-centric take blatantly fails to address all of the problems, the right-wing ideologies, which have easily had a much greater impact on the rise of fascism across the world.

And to be clear, US liberalism is largely supportive of right-wing ideology, the US Democratic party would be considered a right-wing party in many other countries. So it's both parties who are to blame here, but the underlying authoritarian fascist current is decidedly right-wing politics

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#79

Post by JetSetWilly »

piltdownman wrote: post #76
JetSetWilly wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. They are both groups that only exist to commit violence against people to further their political aims. They may differ in how extreme they are, but the core of it is they are violent and we should have absolute zero tolerance against such groups.

I mean the opening statements of the KC for the accused perfectly refutes such nonsensical claims. As Raza Husain KC told the court - “There are reasons of profound importance as to why, in the 32 executive orders that have been made adding organisations to proscribed lists, no direct action civil disobedience organisation appears...Such proscription is repugnant to the tradition of the common law and contrary to the…

I'm sure you'll also find that lawyers make statements in favour of hopelessly guilty murderers. That's what they are paid to do. Your "freedom of expression" does not include hitting people with sledgehammers and attacking and disabling national defence infrastructure. Of course, we should withdraw from the HRA precisely because it is perverted in this way by lawyers, but those bald statements do not in fact show that hitting people with sledgehammers is legitimate freedom of expression or protest, and it appears that committing such acts is the principle reason for PA to exist.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#80

Post by nmeagent »

narrator wrote: post #73
willahmad wrote: post #2

It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone. Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel. It’s truly shameful to see such developments.

I just asked AI what the thousands of arrests for social media posts so far are for and it didn't say anti-semetic content. It said it's largely targeted at anti-immigrant, gender-critical, and being mean to politicians comments. Israel is the "woke right" line these days though, and something the "woke left" and "woke right" can both agree on hating.

> I just asked AI

Please stop doing this. If someone wants to read LLM-generated hooey of some variety, they can submit a prompt somewhere and read the resulting text themselves.

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