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The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

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Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#21

Post by Zigurd »

DrierCycle wrote: post #12
fredoliveira wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you watch the documentary? Would probably fare better if you did, because it'd give you the context for the film title.

I'm an hour into it, unconvinced. The illusion that agency 'emerges' from rules like games, is fundamentally absurd. This is the foundational illusion of mechanics. It's UFOlogy not science.

Your mind emerges from a network of neurons. Machine models are probably far from enabling that kind of emergence, but if what's going on between our ears isn't computation, it's magic.

Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#22

Post by threethirtytwo »

incognito124 wrote: post #7

Watched it a while ago. Made me seriously think about AI and what we should use it for. I feel like all the entertainment use cases (image and video gen) are a complete waste.

Why are images and video a complete waste? This makes no sense to me.

Right now the generators aren’t effective but they are definitely stepping stones to something better in the future.

If that future thing produces video, movies and pictures better than anything humanity can produce at a rate faster than we can produce things… how is that a waste?

It can arguably be bad for society but definitely not a waste.

Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#23

Post by Zigurd »

DrierCycle wrote: post #18
fredoliveira wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, two things: it's the last sentence of the film; being on hour into something you're calling propaganda is brave. Anyways. I thought the documentary was inspiring. Deepmind are the only lab that has historically prioritized science over consumer-facing product (that's changing now, however). I think their work with AlphaFold is commendable.

It's science under the creative boundary of binary/symbols. And as analog thinkers, we should be developing far greater tools than these glass ceilings. And yes, having finished the film, it's far more propagandic than it began as. Science is exceeding the envelop of paradox, and what I see here is obeying the envelope in order to justify the binary as a path to AGI. It's not a path. The symbol is a bottleneck.

Everything between your ears is an electrochemical process. It's all math and there is no "creative boundary." There's plenty to criticize in AI hype that we're going to get to machine intelligence very soon. I suspect a lot of the hype is oriented towards getting favorable treatment from the government if not outright subsidies. But claiming that there are fundamental barriers is a losing bet.

Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#24

Post by DrierCycle »

Zigurd wrote: post #21
DrierCycle wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an hour into it, unconvinced. The illusion that agency 'emerges' from rules like games, is fundamentally absurd. This is the foundational illusion of mechanics. It's UFOlogy not science.

Your mind emerges from a network of neurons. Machine models are probably far from enabling that kind of emergence, but if what's going on between our ears isn't computation, it's magic.

It's not magic. It's neural syntax. And nothing trapped by computation is occurring. It's not a model, it is the world as actions.

The computer is a hand-me-down tool under evolution's glass ceiling. This should be obvious: binary, symbols, metaphors. These are toys (ie they are models), and humans are in our adolescent stage using these toys.

Only analog correlation gets us to agency and thought.

Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#26

Post by [deleted] »

Zigurd wrote: post #21
DrierCycle wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an hour into it, unconvinced. The illusion that agency 'emerges' from rules like games, is fundamentally absurd. This is the foundational illusion of mechanics. It's UFOlogy not science.

Your mind emerges from a network of neurons. Machine models are probably far from enabling that kind of emergence, but if what's going on between our ears isn't computation, it's magic.

[deleted]

Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#27

Post by DrierCycle »

Zigurd wrote: post #23
DrierCycle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's science under the creative boundary of binary/symbols. And as analog thinkers, we should be developing far greater tools than these glass ceilings. And yes, having finished the film, it's far more propagandic than it began as. Science is exceeding the envelop of paradox, and what I see here is obeying the envelope in order to justify the binary as a path to AGI. It's not a path. The symbol is a bottleneck.

Everything between your ears is an electrochemical process. It's all math and there is no "creative boundary." There's plenty to criticize in AI hype that we're going to get to machine intelligence very soon. I suspect a lot of the hype is oriented towards getting favorable treatment from the government if not outright subsidies. But claiming that there are fundamental barriers is a losing bet.

It doesn't happen "btwn ears" and math is an illusion of imprecision. The fundamental barrier is frameworks and computers will not be involved. There will be software obviously. But it will never be computed.

Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#28

Post by incognito124 »

jeffbee wrote: post #16
incognito124 wrote: post #7

Watched it a while ago. Made me seriously think about AI and what we should use it for. I feel like all the entertainment use cases (image and video gen) are a complete waste.

DeepMind's new [edit: apparently now old] weather forecast model is similar in architecture to the toys that generate videos of horses addressing Congress or cats wearing sombreros. The technology moves forward and while some of the new applications are not important, other applications of the same technology may be important.

Is it really similar? I was under the impression it's a GNN of a (really dense) polyhedron, not a diffusion model

Re: The Thinking Game Film – Google DeepMind documentary

#30

Post by incognito124 »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #22
incognito124 wrote: post #7

Watched it a while ago. Made me seriously think about AI and what we should use it for. I feel like all the entertainment use cases (image and video gen) are a complete waste.

Why are images and video a complete waste? This makes no sense to me. Right now the generators aren’t effective but they are definitely stepping stones to something better in the future. If that future thing produces video, movies and pictures better than anything humanity can produce at a rate faster than we can produce things… how is that a waste? It can arguably be bad for society but definitely not a waste.

Let me phrase it a bit differently, then: AI generated cats in Ghibli style are a waste, we should definitely do less of that. I did not hold that opinion before the documentary

Education-style infographics and videos are OK.

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