I'm not sure I'd want something I cared about to depend on a codebase that included anything as amateurish as that "safe_sleep" script mentioned in the post. It's honestly astonishing that it took GitHub as long is it did to fix that bug.
Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
831–840 of 952 posts
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#832Earlier quoted context omitted.
All companies are 'a group of people'. But that's not how you treat them. You should treat the individual employees of microsoft as the people they are. You should treat microsoft as a whole as the evil entity it is (TBF they're not worse than apple or google or etc...)
But the post isn't talking about Microsoft, it's specifically calling the people that work on GitHub monkeys.
You should also consider the point of view of anyone working on github and being paid by microsoft but who actually does care. Note that they are not named and shamed or anything like that.
Do you think there is a chance these hypothetical engineers who care actually want this kind of thing said publicly? And said as poetically invictive laden as possible? The rationale being that they might use such sentiment to get management to see the danger and /start/ caring about product quality?
I've never worked for microsoft. In my experience when product goes into quality decline, rubbish management is >90% of the reason. How futile is fighting that? How futile is fighting it for github? Does github matter in general? My own use is so limited it doesn't directly matter to me. Indirectly it might well do.
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#833Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought this was obvious, but you will be asked to evaluate every government/organization on their morales. So they enforce immigration laws, not enforce it, enforce improperly, do they support abortion, do they support the right side in the Middle East, do they have racist policies, do they not have anti-racist policies, do they limit freedom of speech, do they not limit free speech enough. Every service has rules…
> you will be asked to evaluate every government/organization on their morales So what? Obviously you won't respond to all the permutations, so can draw only some red lines. > without worrying they’ll be terminated Yes, you can have some principles without increasing these concerns
> Obviously you won't
That's what I meant by not scalable/sustainable.
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#834Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#835hn post = verify if you scale
codeberg doesnt
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#836Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's bully behavior. It reminds me of the creeps in school that punched me, shoved me into lockers, tried to assault me. I almost killed myself as a kid because of bullies. Some people never grow out of that, it seems.
Ziglang is a small organization supported by donations, Microsoft is one of the largest companies in the world. If anything, they're punching up. Calling people losers isn't classy, but if I were a well-paid Microsoft employee I'd laugh all the way to the bank that some community funded purist called me that. If it's supposed to be bullying he isn't very good at it.
They're not punching Microsoft.
They're punching employees on a team. People with less freedom and autonomy than the Ziglang ICs.
On the scale of FAANG comp, Microsoft is at the lower end of the scale. I've had several jobs making more in TC than Microsofties.
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#837Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought people knew andrewk was an ahole? I thought that was his supposed charm? Like Linus. I mean https://github.com/ziglang/zig/pull/24317 wasn't that long ago.
What's wrong with that pull request?
I might have linked the wrong PR. Well here is the full context.
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#838Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
someone called some indeterminate anonymous corporate group of people who actively participate in enshittification of a product “losers”. you call that specific private individual “rotten”. i’m really twisting my finger at the temple here.
Read this entire thread. There are over two dozen links with Andrew's own words and bullying behavior provided by other commenters.
This is only the billionth time he's said something like this. He's apologized for it in the past and said he'd change, but it clearly didn't stick.
He's a jerk and a bully like Linus.
This is the guy setting culture at Zig, which is undoubtedly why five people responded to me in this thread with homophobic remarks. His community feels emboldened to do that.
When your leader breaks the Code of Conduct and attacks people, it probably feels like a safe space for all sorts of hatred and vile behavior.
Totally toxic.
Andrew has had a chance to read this thread by now. He's had a chance to reflect on the awful things people have said. Ball's in his court.
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#839They've abandoned GitHub for Codeberg because GitHub has ICE as a customer. Codeberg uses Paypal which is a member of the ICE "Virtual Global Taskforce". https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/top-story-industry-partner... There is a purity spiral that organizations can enter when they start doing this, which ends up with you shoving yourself into a cold dark corner of the internet and still not being completely detached…
> There is a purity spiral that organizations can enter when they start doing this You are the one summoning that spiral by making a cheap gotcha wrt codeberg using Paypal. The project apparently could and did move because the swith from github to codeberg wasn't that big of an impact, and because, while the new forge is not perfect, they feel the association is less severe. There is no "purity spiral" in that, just…
Right, that seemed like a minor issue. There was also the minor issue of the increase of AI code PRs. Seems like the greater issue was a perception of deterioration of the platform (in their sites for years) and a reasonable path towards migration to another platform.
Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg
#840Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not defending him, but we were already doing this with electron apps, frameworks, libraries, and scripting languages. The only meaningful cost in most software development is labor and that’s what makes sense to optimize. I’d rather have good software, but I’ll take badly made software for free over great software that costs more than the value of the problem solved. These discussions are always about tactics and nev…
> I’ll take badly made software for free No, not if I have to maintain it. Code is liability. LLM written PRs often bring net negative value: they make the whole system larger, more brittle, and less integrated. They come at the cost of end user quality and maintainer velocity.
Is that not also true of human written software that costs more per hour than the monthly cost of a coding agent? Developers are expected to ship enterprise software with defects that would land you in court if you made equivalent mistakes designing a water treatment plant or bridge.
I get the “AI sucks” argument from a programmers point of view. It’s weird looking and doesn’t care about “code smells” or about rearranging the code base’s deck chairs just the way you like. From an owner’s or client’s perspective, human programmers suck. You want big standard CRUD app? Like a baby’s first Django app? That’s going to take at least 6 months for some reason. They don’t understand your problem domain and don’t care enough to learn it. They work 15 minutes on the hour, spend 45 on social media or games, and bill you $200/hr. They “pair program” for “quality” to double their billed rate for the same product. They bill you for interns learning how to do their job on your dime. On top of that there is still a very good chance the whole project will just be a failure. Or I can pay Anthropic $20/month and text an AI requirements on my phone when I’ve got 5 minutes of down time. If it doesn’t work I just make a new one and try again. Even if progress on AI stopped today, the world is now so much better for consumers of programs. Maybe not for developers unless you’re writing the AI and getting paid in the millions. Good for them. I’m glad to see the $200/hr Stack Overflow copy and pasters go do something else.