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The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

shujisado.org

201–210 of 314 posts

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#201

I honestly think that the most extreme take that " any output of an LLM falls under all the copyright of all its training data" is not really defensible, especially when contrasted with human learning, and would be curious to hear conflicting opinions. My view is that copyright in general is a pretty abstract and artificial concept; thus corresponding regulation needs to justifiy itself by being useful , i.e. encoura…

Human learning is materially different from LLM training. They're similar in that both involve providing input to a system that can, afterwards, produce output sharing certain statistical regularities with the input, including rote recital in some cases – but the similarities end there.

Why? I'm pretty sure I can learn the lyrics of a song, and probabilistically output them in response to a prompt.

Is the existence of my brain copyright infringement?

The main difference I see (apart from that I bullshit way less than LLMs), is that I can't learn nearly as much as an LLM and I can't talk to 100k people at once 24/7.

I think the real answer here is that AI is a totally new kind of copying, and it's useful enough that laws are going to have to change to accommodate that. What country is going to shoot itself in the foot so much by essentially banning AI, just so it can feel smug about keeping its 20th century copyright laws?

Maybe that will change when you can just type "generate a feature length Pixar blockbuster hit", but I don't see that happening for quite a long time.

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but I just have no interest in imposing restrictions on how people distribute what I build in such a manner either. That's just me.

What if they impose their own restrictions on people further down the line?

Once it's out of my hands, so be it. The users can choose not to use derivatives.

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#203
post #74

Great article but I don't really agree with their take on GPL regarding this paragraph: > The spirit of the GPL is to promote the free sharing and development of software [...] the reality is that they are proceeding in a different vector from the direction of code sharing idealized by GPL. If only the theory of GPL propagation to models walks alone, in reality, only data exclusion and closing off to avoid litigation…

> The virality is a byproduct to ensure the software is not stolen from their users. If Microsoft misappropriates GPL code how exactly is that "stealing" from me, the user, of that code? I'm not deprived in any way, the author is, so I can't make sense of your premise here. > Freedom of software means nothing. Software is information. Does "freedom of information" mean nothing? I think you're narrowing concepts here…

As a user I suffer from not being able to freely use or derive my own work from Microsoft’s

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#204
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably misunderstood how "infection" of GPL works. (which is very common) If your close-sourced project uses some GPL code, it doesn't automatically put your whole project in public domain or under GPL. It just means you're infringing the right of the code author and they can sue you (for money and stopping using their code, not for making your whole project GPL). In the simplest terms, GPL is: if codebase.is_g…

It just means you're infringing the right of the code author and they can sue you (for money and stopping using their code, not for making your whole project GPL). they can sue you and settle for whatever you will accept that makes them happy. if you lose then the alternative to not making your code GPL is to make your code disappear, that is you are no longer allowed to sell your product. consequently, if AI code is…

First of all, pure AI-generated code is uncopyrightable now. Uncopyrightable code can't be under GPL.

Secondly, GPL can't "make your (proprietary) code disappear." Violating GPL is essentially just stealing code. One cannot distribute the version that includes stolen code. But they can remove the stolen part and replace it with their own code. Of course they still need to settle/pay for the previous infringement.

GPL simply can't affect the copyright status of rest of the codebase, because it's a license, not a contract. It cannot restrict the user's right further than the copyright laws.

Again, it's very common misunderstanding of GPL's "virality." It has been a several-decade long debate about whether GPL should be treated like a contract instead of a mere license, but there is no ruling giving it this special legal state (yet), at least in the US.

[0]: https://lwn.net/Articles/61292/ [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Leg...

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The virality is a byproduct to ensure the software is not stolen from their users. If Microsoft misappropriates GPL code how exactly is that "stealing" from me, the user, of that code? I'm not deprived in any way, the author is, so I can't make sense of your premise here. > Freedom of software means nothing. Software is information. Does "freedom of information" mean nothing? I think you're narrowing concepts here…

As a user I suffer from not being able to freely use or derive my own work from Microsoft’s

This. People conflate consumer to user. A user in the sense of GPL is a programmer or technical person whom the software (including source) is intended for.

Not necessarily a “user of an app” but a user of this “suite of source code”.

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#206
post #154
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair use was for citing and so on not for ripping off 100% of the content.

Copyright protects the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. Therefore, an LLM transforming concepts it learned into a response (a new expression) would hardly qualify as copyright infringement in court. This principle is also explicitly declared in US law: > In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, prin…

Recoding a video file doesn't get rid of the copyright therefore doing some automatic processing on a copyrighted material doesn't remove the copyright.

The problem is that openai has too much money. But if I did what they are doing I'd get into massive legal troubles.

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#207
post #67

Genuine question: if I train my model with copyleft material, how do you prove I did? Like if there is no way to trace it back to the original material, does it make sense to regulate it? Not that I like the idea, just wondering. I have been thinking for a while that LLMs are copyright-laundering machines, and I am not sure if there is anything we can do about it other than accepting that it fundamentally changes wha…

By reverse inference and model inversion. We can determine what content a pathway has been trained on. We can find out if it’s been trained on GPL material.

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#208
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just means you're infringing the right of the code author and they can sue you (for money and stopping using their code, not for making your whole project GPL). they can sue you and settle for whatever you will accept that makes them happy. if you lose then the alternative to not making your code GPL is to make your code disappear, that is you are no longer allowed to sell your product. consequently, if AI code is…

First of all, pure AI-generated code is uncopyrightable now. Uncopyrightable code can't be under GPL. Secondly, GPL can't "make your (proprietary) code disappear." Violating GPL is essentially just stealing code. One cannot distribute the version that includes stolen code. But they can remove the stolen part and replace it with their own code. Of course they still need to settle/pay for the previous infringement. GPL…

First of all, pure AI-generated code is uncopyrightable now. Uncopyrightable code can't be under GPL.

if AI generates something that is equal to existing code, then the license of that code applies. the AI generated product as a whole can't be copyrighted, but the portions that reproduce copyrighted code retain the original copyright.

they can remove the stolen part and replace it with their own code

sure, if they can do that, then they can distribute their code again. but until then they can't.

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#209
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a stupid presupposition that LLMs are equivalent to human brains which they clearly are not. Stateless token generators are OBVIOUSLY not like human brains even if you somehow contort the definition of intelligence to include them

Even if they are not "like" human brains in some sense, are they "like" brains enough to be counted similarly in a legal environment? Can you articulate the difference as something other than meat parochialism, which strikes me as arbitrary?

All definitions are arbitrary if you're unwilling to couch them in human experience, because humans are the ones defining. And my main difference is right there in my initial response: an LLM is a stateless function. At best, it is a snapshot of a human brain simulated on a computer, but at no point could it learn something new once deployed. This is the MOST CHARITABLE interpretation of which I don't even concede in reality, it is not even a snapshot of a brain.

Re: The current state of the theory that GPL propagates to AI models

#210

[flagged]

> As someone who has spent a fair amount of time developing open source software, I will say I genuinely dislike copyleft and GPL.

GPL: Help the user

MIT: Help some random company screw the users and save money not hiring people.

Then again I see you're a founder at some AI company so I strongly doubt your motives and statement.

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