In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match • Hacker News Board

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#41

Post by jrabone » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 10:30 AM UTC

ljf wrote: post #20

zxcdw wrote: post #10

What do you do when cameras start calculating the average speed over some distance, rather than doing single-spot measurements? :)

They have these on various motorways and cities in the UK - and they work brilliantly - once you are in (a well signposted) 'average speed check' area, everyone slows down and does the speed limit. You could still be warned that you are aproaching the area though. Interestingly these use front mounted cameras (to capture the driver) so have no effect on motorbikes - though the general slower speed seems to slow them…

Except they don't - they do whatever their woefully inaccurate speedometer thinks the limit is. Since I drive something with cruise control and GPS-indicated speed, I invariably find myself iterating cruise control settings to match with the traffic. As for changing lanes, forget it - everyone will be driving 3 feet of the bumper in front, because the traffic concertina'ed up when it saw the first camera. You'd better be in the correct lane for your exit before you hit the averaging zone, or you're taking the scenic route.

Depressingly, I can't think of a better solution. Driving makes people into assholes, myself included, and averaging cameras are about the only thing that works. Speed bumps and traffic calming simply cause an arms race of bigger and bigger SUVs that simply roll over anything smaller than a mini with impunity.

I suppose they could try the Edinburgh approach of simply not repairing the roads, in favour of spending the money on an overgrown toy train set for the current set of ideologically-challenged councillors.

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#42

Post by m_eiman » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 10:44 AM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #29

m_eiman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been tried in Sweden, and IIRC the court said that since it can't be proven who drove the car between the cameras it's not possible to fine the driver.

Bah, just fine the car owner, it's easy enough for him to have control of his vehicle, unless he reported it as stolen. This isn't a murder trial, it's a minor infraction, like a parking ticket.

Agreed, but for some reason that's not allowed by current Swedish law.

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#43

Post by diggan » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 10:50 AM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #29

m_eiman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been tried in Sweden, and IIRC the court said that since it can't be proven who drove the car between the cameras it's not possible to fine the driver.

Bah, just fine the car owner, it's easy enough for him to have control of his vehicle, unless he reported it as stolen. This isn't a murder trial, it's a minor infraction, like a parking ticket.

But what if it's not the car owner who drives the car when speeding, should the owner still be fined?

I rather see a society where guilty people skip a fine than honest people get a fine.

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#44

Post by thedrbrian » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 10:51 AM UTC

ljf wrote: post #20

zxcdw wrote: post #10

What do you do when cameras start calculating the average speed over some distance, rather than doing single-spot measurements? :)

They have these on various motorways and cities in the UK - and they work brilliantly - once you are in (a well signposted) 'average speed check' area, everyone slows down and does the speed limit. You could still be warned that you are aproaching the area though. Interestingly these use front mounted cameras (to capture the driver) so have no effect on motorbikes - though the general slower speed seems to slow them…

Except when you want to leave the motorway only to find 3 lanes cars driving in formation preventing anyone from leaving.

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#45

Post by raleec » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 12:26 PM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #29

m_eiman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been tried in Sweden, and IIRC the court said that since it can't be proven who drove the car between the cameras it's not possible to fine the driver.

Bah, just fine the car owner, it's easy enough for him to have control of his vehicle, unless he reported it as stolen. This isn't a murder trial, it's a minor infraction, like a parking ticket.

In Washington DC, they give the owner the option of specifying who the driver was, and they forward the ticket.

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#46

Post by namdnay » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 12:34 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #33

snogglethorpe wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you can easily show those jerks, simply by respecting the speed limit! win for you, win for the community!

But a loss for those of us who have two brain cells to rub together. We understand that the state now has an incentive to post and enforce unreasonably low speed limits that the vast majority of drivers will violate. When they say it's about safety, not revenue... it's about the revenue.

But if there were no speed cameras, everyone would drive faster, use more fuel, and so pay more fuel tax!

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#47

Post by Gmo » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 12:35 PM UTC

BlueZeniX wrote: post #31

zorbo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can easily show those jerks by driving at high speed and braking like an idiot right before you hit a speed trap. The reason the Netherlands employs so many mobile speed traps is because people quickly learn where the fixed speed traps are and simply ignore the speed limits in between, or try to "make up for time lost by having to brake for a speed trap" (yes, I've heard and seen plenty of people do this). This i…

Dutch people and government are obsessed with (limiting) speed, instead of focussing on keeping distance. A nice effect of distance is less braking, which means less energy converted into useless heat and less ghost traffic jams. It always amuses me to hear local radio news about yet another multi-vehicle collision. In Germany, the country known for it's wonderful Autobahn, you can temporarily loose your license for…

Ha yes, totally agreeing ...

The worst part of that is when overtaking ... a traditional Dutch driver will only look to see if he has the place to go, not if the car coming at the back is much faster than him/her.

So you end up with a lot of braking when driving on the left-most lane. The "funniest" is to see that happening with Dutch drivers outside the Netherlands ... because drivers from other countries are not used to that behavior :) (disclaimer : I live in NL, but I'm not Dutch and did not learn to drive in the Netherlands)

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#48

Post by namdnay » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 12:55 PM UTC

lloeki wrote: post #38

> the use of radar-detection services like Coyote’s, which also monitors a driver’s speed against posted limits and advises of traffic jams, was applauded last year by the French government as a useful driver education tool, which helped legitimize the service. I don't know where they saw that. "Radar-detection[1] services like Coyote’s" are universally criticized by the (past and present) French government: a bill p…

Also, the article implies that

a) Coyote is new b) Coyote is a smartphone app

Both of these are false: Coyote is about 7 years old, and the "warner" is an independent module that uses the GSM network

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#49

Post by namdnay » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 1:00 PM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #2

Not all cameras are static in europe, this is were these type of systems fall down. Having a subscription to some service that lists were they are and warns you and is updated by you or somebody else who pays a subscription is ok if you like to speed about on dynamic routes. Though anybody who travels the sameish journey a few times will soon know were and when to be mindful of traffic camera's. I often see policemen…

Coyote is a dynamic system. You can flag radars (or "danger zones"), and if enough people flag it everyone will be warned. You can also flag zones as being outdated (i.e. the cops have gone home)

Re: In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match

#50

Post by namdnay » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 1:08 PM UTC

jsvaughan wrote: post #34

pjmlp wrote: post #13

The thing with these systems is when you get caught, you don't pay a simple fine, you just loose your driving license. The journalists should inform themselves better, as European I doubt anyone is easily left of the hook if caught during a police control using such device.

According to this ( http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/radar-detector... ): For some years now it is has been strictly forbidden under article R413-15 of the French 'Code de la Route' (highway code) to have a speed camera detector in a car in France, regardless of whether or not it is being used. Penalties can include fines of up to €1,500, confiscation of the device and of the vehicle. Until recently this…

Radar detectors and radar "warners" are still in a different category. In any case, all warning systems have been upgraded to become "danger zone warning systems" :)