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Racism at a gaming company

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Re: Racism at a gaming company

#431

Post by ceol »

JPKab wrote: post #121
king_jester wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the equivalent of saying the author of this post is a reverse racist. When was the last time a white person was killed for being white? When was the last time someone came up to a white person and said they should be grateful that their ancestors were slaves? When was the last time the government systematically dismantled the white community in order to enforce racist class oppression? Repeat after me: WHITE…

Take a walk through half of Baltimore, friend, and you will discover that you will get the shit kicked out of you for being white. Murdered? Hopefully not, but I can assure you that, while the old, racist, static power structures of the USA are oppressive towards non-whites, power is not a static thing. It shifts depending on where you are. When you are taking said walk in Baltimore, and become surrounded by people w…

>Take a walk through half of Baltimore, friend, and you will discover that you will get the shit kicked out of you for being white.

Hey there! I'm a white guy who has taken walks through Baltimore before— in fact, all of Baltimore. What you're talking about isn't at all systemic like the shit the OP has to deal with. Yes, white people are victims of racially-motivated crimes. In fact, some of them are event prosecuted as hate crimes! But it's not systemic, so comparing it to white-on-black racism isn't fair.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#432

Post by xanados »

anthonyb wrote: post #424
xanados wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of bingo cards is not an argument, even if patio has made it so easy for us to generate them. You may find the following article interesting: http://squid314.livejournal.com/329561.html > This tendency reaches its most florid manifestation in the "ideological bingo games". See for example "Skeptical Sexist Bingo", feminist bingo, libertarian troll bingo, anti-Zionist bingo, pro-Zionist bingo, and so on.…

That article is a waste of time. It rails against poor arguments and a lack of insight with... poor arguments and a lack of insight. For umpteen pages. For some reason we're supposed to hear out people who start an argument with "I'm not racist but..." If you find yourself saying "I'm not racist but..." you shouldn't be trying to justify yourself and come up with reasons why the other person should hear you out. You…

That article is one in a series. Perhaps I was wrong and it is not clear or well-argued without the context of the broader series to draw from. It's a shame because it is actually painstaking in its argumentation and attention to nuance, and by far the most insightful series of its kind that I've ever read.

When you say "chances are you are a bigot" you may technically be correct in the sense that from a random population of "I'm not a racist but" statements, more than 50% of them are said by bigots (in fact, I would probably estimate this much higher, as bigots say it more frequently, in my experience). As for my-literal-self, and almost everyone who is reading these comments (well educated, left-leaning startup enthusiasts), I have significant other evidence that I have to weigh against that proposition (i.e. my recollection of my lifetime's past events and explicit knowledge of my views and beliefs), so if I were ever inclined to use such a phrase I wouldn't actually be making a bigoted statement. Unfortunately, some people who are less thoughtful and less capable of a nuanced understanding of argumentation would immediately turn off their brains and assume whatever this counterfactual self said next was bigoted. People like that have bad rhetorical hygiene and arguing with them should be avoided if you don't want to contract memetically transmitted diseases.

Saying that bingo cards are a "useful tool" is doing a disservice to the word tool. They are, if not actively harmful, merely a form of entertainment, and no more a tool than Star Trek VI.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#433

Post by anthonyb »

xanados wrote: post #432
anthonyb wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article is a waste of time. It rails against poor arguments and a lack of insight with... poor arguments and a lack of insight. For umpteen pages. For some reason we're supposed to hear out people who start an argument with "I'm not racist but..." If you find yourself saying "I'm not racist but..." you shouldn't be trying to justify yourself and come up with reasons why the other person should hear you out. You…

That article is one in a series. Perhaps I was wrong and it is not clear or well-argued without the context of the broader series to draw from. It's a shame because it is actually painstaking in its argumentation and attention to nuance, and by far the most insightful series of its kind that I've ever read. When you say "chances are you are a bigot" you may technically be correct in the sense that from a random popul…

> "it is actually painstaking in its argumentation and attention to nuance"

No it's not. It doesn't follow anything through to a conclusion, it just berates people who attack strawmen, or who dismiss others' arguments out of hand, whether that dismissal is warranted or not.

Just taking the "I'm not racist but.." argument on that post: are you really saying that there is no other way to phrase your argument? It's guaranteed to cause a reaction in everybody with an opinion on the issue and it's somehow their fault for not giving your argument proper attention or missing a nuance somewhere?

And then you complain about bad rhetorical hygiene. State your case in a way that your audience can understand and engage with it, and you'll get a better response.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#434

Post by javert »

_pius wrote: post #425
javert wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The calculator necklace thing is what I was referring to. But I'm speaking from personal experience.

But I'm speaking from personal experience. Yeah, you've really got to watch out for "progressive blacks" like me, we're trouble.

Again, I'm just recounting my personal experience.

FYI, I grew up and still live in the southern US, where race relations are an acknowledged problem, and where social protocols and culture are still more distinct across races than they are within them. And I'm already somewhat bad in general with social protocols.

So I'm not saying white people shouldn't talk to black people. I'm saying that, unfortunately,white people do feel uncomfortable talking to them sometimes, or at least, the bar is higher for meaningful social interaction. I think that's a shame, and unfortunately I don't know what to do about it.

But I do know that accusing white people of racism for clearly non-racist behavior, as with the calculator-necklace incident, is counterproductive, and (for me) reinforces needlessly distressful things I've experienced. That's what I was trying to get at with my earlier comment.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#435

Post by smanek »

[deleted] wrote: post #426
psykotic wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a blog post, not a legal document, so what do you expect? I have gotten independent albeit second-hand verification of a few of the episodes. Ignoring that, I still see nothing to warrant accusations of whining and lying. People yelling 'hypocrisy' and using it as evidence against his truthfulness are looking to rationalize their gut response, nothing more. Hypocrisy may be a weighty accusation against grandstan…

[deleted]

also offtopic: 'voracious vocabulary' probably doesn't mean what you think ;-) (you're probably thinking 'voracious reader')

I like to use HL Mencken as inspiration.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#437

Post by intended »

shardling wrote: post #227
intended wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And right there is the classic holding pattern. 40 minutes into posting too, not bad. The pattern is: Apply standard of neutrality to poster, and find poster wanting - hence remain skeptical to keep an open mind. "there could be a misunderstanding." The promulgator and supporters are always people who are at best well meaning, but generally oblivious to privilege or its manifestations. This will be pointed out, and t…

My personal theory on why this particular POV always attracts folk is as follows: • We see a stranger (call them the victim) on the internet making strong, negative claims against a set of people who are also strangers. • We often only have the victim's word to judge these claims by. • Therefore, there will often be debate about these words (which we can talk about with certainty) instead of the claims made (which we…

I see the same - its a terrible pattern and the only time it gets broken is on the extremely rare occasions when someone with experience AND ability to express the issue precisely shows up.

Other wise its always a death spiral at worst or a holding pattern on average.

I think yours is a larger general case - and I am trying to invoke perhaps a child case with the addition of privilege blindness.

What is tragic that this is a perfect example of good intentions that lead to terrible results.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#438

Post by [deleted] »

shardling wrote: post #227
intended wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And right there is the classic holding pattern. 40 minutes into posting too, not bad. The pattern is: Apply standard of neutrality to poster, and find poster wanting - hence remain skeptical to keep an open mind. "there could be a misunderstanding." The promulgator and supporters are always people who are at best well meaning, but generally oblivious to privilege or its manifestations. This will be pointed out, and t…

My personal theory on why this particular POV always attracts folk is as follows: • We see a stranger (call them the victim) on the internet making strong, negative claims against a set of people who are also strangers. • We often only have the victim's word to judge these claims by. • Therefore, there will often be debate about these words (which we can talk about with certainty) instead of the claims made (which we…

[deleted]

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#439

Post by rmc »

makomk wrote: post #325
to_jon wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive." -- too typical a response "Peppered throughout the post are cultural signs and signifiers that mark the author as an advocate for a fairly specific set of political and social beliefs." -- completely irrelevant to assessing the facts of the case As a white m…

I'm too cynical to even manage disappointment, sorry. HN is... well, it's very white. I'm not so much talking about the people who comment here, but for the most part we're discussing companies founded and run by white people, funded by all-white venture capital organisations, with a largely-white employee base. Given that, it's sadly not surprising that many commenters here have really fucked up views on racism beca…

Here here. Similar replies come up when the topic of sexism comes up, for the same reasons, majority of people here are male.
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