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I don't care how well your "AI" works

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Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#461

Post by CharlesW »

nrclark wrote: post #343
easterncalculus wrote: post #244

> I find it particularly disillusioning to realize how deep the LLM brainworm is able to eat itself even into progressive hacker circles. That's the thing, hacker circles didn't always have this 'progressive' luddite mentality. This is the culture that replaced hacker culture. I don't like AI, generally. I am skeptical of corporate influence, I doubt AI 2027 and so-called 'AGI'. I'm certain we'll be "five years away"…

Ironically, the actual luddites weren't anti-technology at all. Mechanized looms at the time produced low-quality, low-durability cloth at low prices. The luddite pushback was more about the shift from durable to disposable. It's a message that's actually pretty relevant in an age of AI slop.

They were anti-technology in the sense that they destroyed the machines, because of the machines' negative effects on pay and quality. Maybe you could debate whether they were anti-technology absent its effects, but all technologies have effects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#462

Post by thewebguyd »

easterncalculus wrote: post #244

> I find it particularly disillusioning to realize how deep the LLM brainworm is able to eat itself even into progressive hacker circles. That's the thing, hacker circles didn't always have this 'progressive' luddite mentality. This is the culture that replaced hacker culture. I don't like AI, generally. I am skeptical of corporate influence, I doubt AI 2027 and so-called 'AGI'. I'm certain we'll be "five years away"…

> All that said, the actual workday is absolutely filled with busy work that no one really wants to do, and the refusal of a loud minority to engage with that fact is what's leading to this.

The attitude and push back from this loud minority has always been weird to me. Ever since I got my hands on my first computer as a kid, I've been outsourcing parts of my brain to computing so that I can focus on more interesting things. I no longer have to remember phone numbers, I no longer have to carry a paper notepad, my bookshelf full of reference books that constantly needed to be refreshed became a Google search away instead. Intellisense/code completion meant I didn't have to waste time memorizing every specific syntax and keyword. Hell, IDEs have been generating code for a long time. I was using Visual Studio to automatically generate model classes from my database schema for as long as I can remember, and even generating CRUD pages.

The opportunity to outsource even more of the 'busywork' is great. Isn't this was technology is supposed to do? Automate away the boring stuff?

The only reasoning I can think of is that the most vocal opponents work in careers where that same busywork is actually most of their job, and so they are naturally worried about their future.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#463

Post by taco_emoji »

musicale wrote: post #432
ukFxqnLa2sBSBf6 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider myself progressive and my main issue with the technology is that it was created by stealing from people who have not been compensated in any way. I wouldn’t blame any artist that is fundamentally against this tech in every way. Good for them.

It's "unauthorized use" rather than "stealing", since the original work is not moved anywhere. It's more like using your creative work to train a software system that generates similar-looking, competing works, for pennies, at industrial scale and speed.

everybody knows this, you are being uselessly pedantic

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#464

Post by andai »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #401
quantummagic wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we need to create a culture that values craftmanship and dignifies work done by developers. Mostly I agree with you. But there's a large group of people who are way too contemptuous of craftsmen using AI. We need to push back against this arrogant attitude. Just as we shouldn't be contemptuous of a woodworking craftsman using a table saw.

That's because there's nothing "craftsman" about using AI to do stuff for you. Someone who uses AI to write their programs isn't the equivalent of a carpenter using a table saw, they are the equivalent of a carpenter who subcontracts the piece out to someone else. And we wouldn't show respect to the latter person either.

What about an architect who outsources the bricklaying? A designer who outsources manufacturing?

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#465

Post by HWR_14 »

JustExAWS wrote: post #430
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the culture that replaced hacker culture. Somewhere along the lines of "everybody can code," we threw out the values and aesthetics that attracted people in the first place. What began as a rejection of externally imposed values devolved into a mouthpiece of the current powers and principalities. This is evidenced by the new set of hacker values being almost purely performative when compared against the old…

I’ve been a “software engineer” or closely adjacent for 30 years. During that time, I’ve worked for small and medium “lifestyle companies”, startups, boring Big Enterprise, $BigTech and over the past 5 years (including my time at $BigTech) worked as a customer facing cloud consultant where I’ve seen every type of organization imaginable and how they work. No one ever gave a rip about “craftsmanship”. They hire you fo…

> If an LLM helps me exchange my labor for money more efficiently

Except that's unproven. It might make you more productive, but whether you get any of that new value is untested.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#466

Post by Glemkloksdjf »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #311
easterncalculus wrote: post #244

> I find it particularly disillusioning to realize how deep the LLM brainworm is able to eat itself even into progressive hacker circles. That's the thing, hacker circles didn't always have this 'progressive' luddite mentality. This is the culture that replaced hacker culture. I don't like AI, generally. I am skeptical of corporate influence, I doubt AI 2027 and so-called 'AGI'. I'm certain we'll be "five years away"…

> This is the culture that replaced hacker culture. Somewhere along the lines of "everybody can code," we threw out the values and aesthetics that attracted people in the first place. What began as a rejection of externally imposed values devolved into a mouthpiece of the current powers and principalities. This is evidenced by the new set of hacker values being almost purely performative when compared against the old…

We need to change the underlying system.

We do not need to do things no one needs. We do not need a million differen webshops, and the next CRUD application.

We need a system which allows the earth resources being used as efficient and fair as possible.

Then we can again start apprechiating real craftmanship but not for critical things and not because we need to feed ourselves but because we want to do it.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#467

Post by sosodev »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #396
hamdingers wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally don’t touch LLMs with a stick. I don’t let them near my brain. Many of my friends share that sentiment. FTA. I know tons of people where "tried it out" means they've seen Google's abysmal search summary feature, or merely seen the memes and read news articles about how it's wrong sometimes, and haven't explored any further.

Personally I'm watching people I used to respect start to rely on AI more and more and their skills and knowledge are declining rapidly while their reliance is growing, so I'm really not interested in following that path They seem just as enthusiastic as many of the pro AI voices here on HN, while the quality of their work declines. It makes me extremely skeptical of anyone who is enthusiastic about AI. It seems to m…

How do you know their skills and knowledge are declining rapidly? Does using an LLM cause one to suddenly forget everything?

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#468

Post by marcus_cemes »

scld wrote: post #242
abbadadda wrote: post #33

I really enjoyed how your words made me _feel._ They encouraged me to "keep fighting the good fight" when it comes to avoiding social media, et. al. I do Vibe Code occasionally, Claude did a decent job with Terraform and SaltStack recently, but the words ring true in my head about how AI weakens my thinking, especially when it comes to Python or any programming language. Tread carefully indeed. And reading a book doe…

Doesn't Python weaken your thinking about how computers actually work?

You could make the same argument for any language. It still requires you to think and implement the solution yourself, just at a certain level of abstraction.

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#469

Post by musicale »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #453
musicale wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's "unauthorized use" rather than "stealing", since the original work is not moved anywhere. It's more like using your creative work to train a software system that generates similar-looking, competing works, for pennies, at industrial scale and speed.

Obtaining without payment or consent and then using to create derivative works at scale? And the pedantry matters only because the entities criming are too big and rich and financed by the right people. It is basically a display of the societal threshold beyond which laws are not enforced.

> Obtaining without payment or consent

Usually "obtaining" is just making a bunch of HTTP requests - which is kind of how the web is designed to work. The "consent" (and perhaps "desired payment" when there is no paywall) issue is the important bit and ultimately boils down to the use case. Is it a human viewing the page, a search engine updating its index, or OpenAI collecting data for training? It is annoying when things like robots.txt are simply ignored, even if they are not legally or technically binding.

The legal situation is unsurprisingly murky at the moment. Copyright law was designed for a different use case, and might not be the right tool or regulatory framework to address GenAI.

But as I think you are suggesting, it may be an example of regulatory entrepreneurship, where (AI) companies try to move forward quickly before laws and regulations catch up with them, while simultaneously trying to influence new laws and regulations in their favor.

[Copyright law itself also has many peculiarities, for example not applying to recipes, game rules, or fashion designs (hence fast fashion, knockoffs, etc.) Does it, or should it, apply to AI training and GenAI services? Time will tell.]

Re: I don't care how well your "AI" works

#470

Post by newman8r »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #401
quantummagic wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we need to create a culture that values craftmanship and dignifies work done by developers. Mostly I agree with you. But there's a large group of people who are way too contemptuous of craftsmen using AI. We need to push back against this arrogant attitude. Just as we shouldn't be contemptuous of a woodworking craftsman using a table saw.

That's because there's nothing "craftsman" about using AI to do stuff for you. Someone who uses AI to write their programs isn't the equivalent of a carpenter using a table saw, they are the equivalent of a carpenter who subcontracts the piece out to someone else. And we wouldn't show respect to the latter person either.

> And we wouldn't show respect to the latter person either.

Not respect as a carpenter, but perhaps respect as a businessperson or visionary.

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