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Racism at a gaming company

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Re: Racism at a gaming company

#361

Post by _pius »

javert wrote: post #346
nollidge wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yo, based on the copious number of comments you've made addressing this I know you're super concerned about that single anecdote from within a larger context, but she didn't get her head bitten off, unless for some weird reason you're reading him as actually saying "Dumbwhite" out loud at her, despite it not being in quotes.

No, he's right. The basic principle here is, do not talk to "progressive" black people, because you are likely to say something innocuous that they interpret as highly offensive. That is the message being sent here.

The statements made to this person seem innocuous to you?

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#362

Post by brandx »

Dave9k wrote: post #319
humean wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose, instead of just thinking, "Dumbwhite---," the OP had actually said out loud , "Dumbwhite---." Would that be a firing offense, too? I'm sure it would be - I'm just asking to make sure.

If this guy was white and calling everyone "dumbblack------" no one would be upvoting this.

Change your tampon and find another job.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#363

Post by erikpukinskis »

bmj wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO CARES? Yes, let's suspend his Guardian Of Society Medal Of Honor until we sort his personal politics out. Meanwhile, this guy says that management at a large SF gaming company is routinely harassing black and latino staff members. The story here isn't about him .

I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive. IANAL, but I wonder if this post will hurt his chances of successfully pursuing his employers?

I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive.

Why do you believe that? Have you been in a bunch of pitch perfect productive conversations about racism? In my experience, when one tactic for derailing conversations about racism fails people just pick up another one. In this conversation you see many such strategies at play:

I see all of these as efforts to not talk about the actual structures being criticized in the post:

* Saying the tone makes the message unlistenable * Talking about the extent to which the post is effective activism ("he would be more effective if...") * Stopping conversation do to perceived insurmountable "bias" * Refocusing on other forms of racism (like the dumbwhite* comments) * Talking about whether people are "racists" and refocusing on their overall character.

It goes on and on. Pitch perfect tone doesn't get you through that wilderness.

And honestly, when someone has been through something so traumatic, demanding perfect pitch is heartless.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#364

Post by erikpukinskis »

bmj wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO CARES? Yes, let's suspend his Guardian Of Society Medal Of Honor until we sort his personal politics out. Meanwhile, this guy says that management at a large SF gaming company is routinely harassing black and latino staff members. The story here isn't about him .

I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive. IANAL, but I wonder if this post will hurt his chances of successfully pursuing his employers?

I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive.

Why do you believe that? Have you been in a bunch of pitch perfect productive conversations about racism? In my experience, when one tactic for derailing conversations about racism fails people just pick up another one. In this conversation you see many such strategies at play:

I see all of these as efforts to not talk about the actual structures being criticized in the post:

* Saying the tone makes the message unlistenable * Talking about the extent to which the post is effective activism ("he would be more effective if...") * Stopping conversation do to perceived insurmountable "bias" * Refocusing on other forms of racism (like the dumbwhite* comments) * Talking about whether people are "racists" and refocusing on their overall character.

It goes on and on. Pitch perfect tone doesn't get you through that wilderness.

And honestly, when someone has been through something so traumatic, demanding perfect pitch is heartless.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#365

Post by erikpukinskis »

bmj wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO CARES? Yes, let's suspend his Guardian Of Society Medal Of Honor until we sort his personal politics out. Meanwhile, this guy says that management at a large SF gaming company is routinely harassing black and latino staff members. The story here isn't about him .

I agree, but some of his content will be a barrier for some people. I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive. IANAL, but I wonder if this post will hurt his chances of successfully pursuing his employers?

I'm sure if the tone of the post was milder, most of the comments here would be supportive.

Why do you believe that? Have you been in a bunch of pitch perfect productive conversations about racism? In my experience, when one tactic for derailing conversations about racism fails people just pick up another one. In this conversation you see many such strategies at play:

I see all of these as efforts to not talk about the actual structures being criticized in the post:

* Saying the tone makes the message unlistenable * Talking about the extent to which the post is effective activism ("he would be more effective if...") * Stopping conversation do to perceived insurmountable "bias" * Refocusing on other forms of racism (like the dumbwhite* comments) * Talking about whether people are "racists" and refocusing on their overall character.

It goes on and on. Pitch perfect tone doesn't get you through that wilderness.

And honestly, when someone has been through something so traumatic, demanding perfect pitch is heartless.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#366

Post by saraid216 »

makomk wrote: post #342
saraid216 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, lines have been drawn. "Fighting words", "obscenity", "clear and present danger", "libel", and so on. There are a lot of checks on speech, some of which people feel go too far. And it's the purpose of the courts to set precedent and handle fuzziness. Gaiman has talked about this quite well: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-... The quotable is "The Law is a blunt instrument. It's not a…

Disturbingly, when dealing with free speech the US courts are actually more likely to defend the indefensible. For instance, the US Supreme Court unamously ruled that anti-draft speech - actual political speech - wasn't protected by the First Amendment in Schenck v. United States, and the same again with groups advocating Communism in Whitney v. California. This precedent stood until Brandenburg v. Ohio when suddenly…

I hadn't known that history; fascinating.

The Wikipedia entry for cross burning indicates that it has been handled negatively in the last five years–that is, the act of cross burning was not protected as speech–and makes no mention of Brandenburg v. Ohio. That Wikipedia entry does not indicate that cross burning was a significant question at stake in the case, since the matter being decided was the constitutionality of the Ohio statute.

Admittedly, that's just a reading of Wikipedia and I have no training in law of any kind, but it doesn't seem as provocative as you put it.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#368

Post by w1ntermute »

cameronh90 wrote: post #354
w1ntermute wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the UK in the last few years there have been several high profile cases of racial abuse on Twitter and the racists have gotten jail time (one example at the bottom of the article linked below). This is one of the advantages of having a written constitution. You can't just do things on a whim that violate basic principles of the country, since they're clearly codified in writing.

As a resident of the UK, I think that if we did have a written constitution, regrettably free speech wouldn't be on it. As much as I personally believe in free speech, I do get the impression that the general public here don't.

Which is absolutely fine ― at least then those people wouldn't be able to hypocritically claim free speech as one of their country's positive attributes when trying to distinguish themselves from "barbaric" countries like China or those in the Middle East while also suppressing free speech when it fits their "multicultural" agenda.

Moreover, the UK would then get a lot of shit overseas, particularly in America, for being an example of how European-style socialism leads to a lack of civil liberties, and that might put pressure on the British to actually codify that right.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#369

Post by vacri »

makomk wrote: post #342
saraid216 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, lines have been drawn. "Fighting words", "obscenity", "clear and present danger", "libel", and so on. There are a lot of checks on speech, some of which people feel go too far. And it's the purpose of the courts to set precedent and handle fuzziness. Gaiman has talked about this quite well: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-... The quotable is "The Law is a blunt instrument. It's not a…

Disturbingly, when dealing with free speech the US courts are actually more likely to defend the indefensible. For instance, the US Supreme Court unamously ruled that anti-draft speech - actual political speech - wasn't protected by the First Amendment in Schenck v. United States, and the same again with groups advocating Communism in Whitney v. California. This precedent stood until Brandenburg v. Ohio when suddenly…

Another interesting tidbit is that the US does very poorly when considering 'freedom of speech' with respect to the media. In the Press Freedom Index, the US comes in at #47 of 179, as compared to the UK's #28 (and the raw scores aren't in the same neighbourhood either). It's just a reminder that speech in the US isn't as free as it's said to be.

http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2011-2012,1043.html

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#370

Post by protomyth »

king_jester wrote: post #50
drats wrote: post #29

"Dumbblack " "then proceeds to do what black men always can’t help but do" "black men always telling which way is up because they feel they are the “authority” when it comes to any and everything, most often when they don’t know shit about shit" " I know when black people start to speak down to me from their pedatsol which is white privilege, they aren’t listening, nor will they" "I cannot afford to take black people…

This is the equivalent of saying the author of this post is a reverse racist. When was the last time a white person was killed for being white? When was the last time someone came up to a white person and said they should be grateful that their ancestors were slaves? When was the last time the government systematically dismantled the white community in order to enforce racist class oppression? Repeat after me: WHITE…

> Repeat after me: WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT SUFFER FROM RACISM

That's a load of crap. I am considered "white" (you need papers and blood quote to prove you're Native American despite what some senatorial candidate thinks), and I have gotten a ton of crap because I grew up on a reservation not of my father's tribe. And no, I did not get to flee to the mystically accepting fellow white folk in the the town next door (I lived on the rez after all and am related).

The brain is an amazing pattern matching machine. You missed matching the whole pattern.

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