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France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

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Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#161

Post by marcinzm »

pelotron wrote: post #85
marcinzm wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were many decades where phones didn't have back doors. Your cell phone provider almost certainly will respond to a valid warrant and wire tap your non e2e encrypted phone call. I'd be very surprised if the most common mode of remote communication in any time period was not subject to government interception in some format within a short time of becoming such. That includes physical mail, telegrams, landlines,…

I don't think people are arguing against complying with valid warrants. They object to blanket surveillance being done with tools available to any law officer that can be used at any time, warrant or not.

You cannot have true e2e encryption on a secure device and comply with a wiretap warrant without a backdoor of some kind somewhere.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#162

Post by deno »

izacus wrote: post #97
maelito wrote: post #63

The linked article from Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) is quite nuanced. It gives the police's view on narco-trafic crime, but also Graphene's take : "Criminals and traffickers also use knives." This organization, which is not a company but a foundation, emphasizes that its solution is used by ordinary people who dislike how apps and operating systems handle their data. It adds that if crimina…

One thing though is - knives, fast cars and cash aren't built with deliberate motivation of thwarting the law enforcement and criminal investigations. GrapheneOS and its systems are - you can walk through history and see that they're deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts of collecting data from seized devices and tracking criminal networks. This is a massive difference - even for knives…

So which knife makers are serializing their kitchen knives so they can be traced back in case of a crime? How many knives come with a GPS tracking its position? Well too expensive, what about an Airtag. No? By your roundabout logic this qualifies as “deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts”. It’s an absurd argument.

To actually do any crime with GrapheneOS you would also need at least a VPN and basic understanding of operational security. Just as you would need a lot more than just a knife and car to be a successful criminal.

A Pixel phone with GrapheneOS is not some magic device that let's you do crime without immunity, but that’s the story they want to sell you.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#163

Post by mothballed »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #146
lucideer wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are a public servant. I don't understand why private citizens are held to higher standards of conduct than politicians and cops. Last time I checked, politicians and cops are private citizens... Wherever you stand on this, I can't understand the justification for this "one rule for thee" position.

Logistically, when you combine private citizenship with government you get corruption problems because incentives are so misaligned. In fact private citizenship combined with government is the origin of corruption. Think about it, as a government official your incentive should be to preserve order, fairness and honor. As a private citizen your goal is to optimize the amount of money you make via business or employmen…

I'd argue the incentives of elected government and private citizens are even more misaligned than "private" ones.

Elected government official doesn't own or have perpetual interest. All he can do is plunder as fast as he can in his unowned fiefdom before it passes on to the next guy. Fully private government would have incentive at least to preserve the value of the "Kingdom" if nothing else for his own children and because he sees the Kingdom as his own and destroying it for short term gain would be irrational.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#164

Post by immibis »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #104
izacus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing though is - knives, fast cars and cash aren't built with deliberate motivation of thwarting the law enforcement and criminal investigations. GrapheneOS and its systems are - you can walk through history and see that they're deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts of collecting data from seized devices and tracking criminal networks. This is a massive difference - even for knives…

Graphene shouldn't have to reckon with the abuse of government, we should step in and speak up for them. If having a secure device becomes criminal, only the criminals will have secure devices. Law enforcement is being lazy by trying to rely on mass surveillance rather than espionage tactics to catch criminals. Criminals learned long ago how to work around surveillance, so this doesn't really work on them. But it doe…

Beware, though, the key words in that quote are not "liberty" and "safety" but rather "temporary" and "essential". You can replace "liberty" and "safety" with any other nouns (including "safety" and "liberty") and it's still true.

Which is not to excuse the fascist actions of the French government. I just don't like that quote.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#165

Post by blueflow »

MYEUHD wrote: post #78
walletdrainer wrote: post #59

The claim in the title of the post is not substantiated in any way. The correct headline here would be ”GrapheneOS worried about France after negative press”

It is in third post in the thread: https://mamot.fr/@LaQuadrature/115581775986937247 > Interviewed, she warns that she will “not stop pursuing publishers if links are discovered with a criminal organization and they [GrapheneOS] do not cooperate with justice.”

This is not proven state action - this is hearsay. Maybe the GrapheneOS project should wait for the first warrant to arrive or police raid to happen before claiming what they currently do.

With the current evidence, its not ruled out that the french state is not doing anything at all.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#166

Post by TiredOfLife »

cedws wrote: post #130

Remember when they arrested Pavel Durov? I don't buy their official reasoning. Dear European friends, our leaders are tightening the screws. If we don't make our voices heard this is only going to get worse. https://x.com/durov/status/1976420399970701543

I remember. It helped expose his lies about not traveling to russia and not collaborating with russian security services.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#167

Post by ovi256 »

maelito wrote: post #63

The linked article from Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) is quite nuanced. It gives the police's view on narco-trafic crime, but also Graphene's take : "Criminals and traffickers also use knives." This organization, which is not a company but a foundation, emphasizes that its solution is used by ordinary people who dislike how apps and operating systems handle their data. It adds that if crimina…

> Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) They're all billionaire owned. As an example, left wing newspaper Liberation has Kretinsky among the owners

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#168

Post by moomin »

The article is kind of interesting: on the one hand, you’ve got a tool that can be used by ordinary citizens and political dissidents for legitimate reasons. On the other, the French police were mildly inconvenienced during their arrest of a small-time drug dealer.

Yes, really, that’s the argument.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#169

Post by immibis »

ceayo wrote: post #90
mytailorisrich wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they will respond to warrants, they have to, and nowadays they have the infrastructure to forward all traffic to law emforcement's servers in real-time.

> and nowadays they have the infrastructure to forward all traffic to law enforcement's servers in real-time. The goal should be, designing your infrastructure in such a way they simply cannot forward this traffic to law enforcement.

Which is evidently illegal in France.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#170

Post by marcinzm »

ceayo wrote: post #90
mytailorisrich wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they will respond to warrants, they have to, and nowadays they have the infrastructure to forward all traffic to law emforcement's servers in real-time.

> and nowadays they have the infrastructure to forward all traffic to law enforcement's servers in real-time. The goal should be, designing your infrastructure in such a way they simply cannot forward this traffic to law enforcement.

We're discussing this in regards to an article where the obvious "solution" was found by the government to this very approach. You're free to build it that way and we're free to put you all in jail afterwards as a result. Rubber hose decryption at its finest.
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