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We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

lalitm.com

61–70 of 356 posts

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#61

I'm a bit torn on Fix-it weeks. They are nice but many bugs simply aren't worth fixing. Generally, if they were worth fixing - they would have been fixed. I do appreciate though that certain people, often very good detail oriented engineers, find large backlogs incredibly frustrating so I support fix-it weeks even if there isn't clear business ROI.

> Generally, if they were worth fixing - they would have been fixed.

???

Basically any major software product accumulates a few issues over time. There's always a "we can fix that later" mindset and it all piles up. MacOS and Windows are both buggy messes. I think I speak for the vast majority of people when I say that I'd prefer they have a fix-it year and just get rid of all the issues instead of trying to rush new features out the door.

Maybe rushing out features is good for more money now, but someday there'll be a straw that breaks the camel's back and they'll need to devote a lot of time to fix things or their products will be so bad that people will move to other options.

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#62
post #5

I've never understood why bugs get treated differently from new features. If there was a bug, the old feature was never completed. The time cost and benefits should be considered equally.

Because the goal of most businesses is not to create complete features. There's only actions in response to the repeated question of "which next action do we think will lead us to the most money"?

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#63
A company I worked at also did this, though there was no limits. Some folks would choose to spend the whole week working on a larger refactor, for example, I unified all of our redis usage to use a single modern library compared to the mess of 3 libraries of various ages across our codebase. This was relatively easy, but tedious, and required some new tests/etc.

Overall, I think this kind of thing is very positive for the health of building software, and morale to show that it is a priority to actually address these things.

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#65
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said they only pick bugs that take 2 days to fix. Places where you can move fast and actually do things are actually far better places to work for. I mean the ones were you can show up, do 5 hours of really good work, and then slack off/leave a little early.

Nothing takes 2 days to fix. Those are definitely not bugs, like someone else mentioned

You haven't seen the same kind of bugs I have, I guess.

This kind of thing takes more than 2 days to fix, unless you're really good.

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=217637

Or this one

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/104845/dhe-rsa-...

I can find more of these that I've run into if I look. I've had tricky bugs in my team's code too, but those don't result in public artifacts, and I'm responsible for all the code that runs on my server, regardless of who wrote it... And I also can't crash client code, regardless of who wrote it, even if my code just follows the RFC.

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#66

I love the idea, but this line: > 1) no bug should take over 2 days Is odd. It’s virtually impossible for me to estimate how long it will take to fix a bug, until the job is done. That said, unless fixing a bug requires a significant refactor/rewrite, I can’t imagine spending more than a day on one. Also, I tend to attack bugs by priority/severity, as opposed to difficulty. Some of the most serious bugs are often qui…

Bugs taking less than 2 days are great to have as a target but will not be something that can be guaranteed.

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I’m obviously a terrible programmer. Ya got me.

I just find it so oversimplified that I can't believe you're sincere. Like you have entirely no internal heuristic for even a coarse estimation of a few minutes, hours, or days? I would say you're not being very introspective or are just exaggerating.

I think it's very sector dependent.

Working on drivers, a relatively recent example is when we started looking at a "small" image corruption issue in some really specific cases, that slowly spidered out to what was fundamentally a hardware bug affecting an entire class of possible situations, it was just this one case happened to be noticed first.

There was even talk about a hardware ECO at points during this, though an acceptable workaround was eventually found.

I could never have predicted that when I started working on it, and it seemed every time we thought we'd got a decent idea about what was happening even more was revealed.

And then there's been many other issues when you fall onto the cause pretty much instantly and a trivial fix can be completed and in testing faster than updating the bugtracker with an estimate.

True there's probably a decent amount, maybe even 50%, where you can probably have a decent guess after putting in some length of time and be correct within a factor of 2 or so, but I always felt the "long tail" was large enough to make that pretty damn inaccurate.

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#68

This is weird to me... The way I learned the trade, and usually worked, is that bug fixing always comes first! You don't work on new features until the old ones work as they should. This worked well for the teams I was on. Having a (AFAYK) bug free code base is incredibly useful!!

I'd love to see an actual bug-free codebase. People who state the codebase in bug-free probably just lack awareness. Even stating we 'have only x bugs' is likely not true.

We kinda always leave documentation and test bugs in. Documentation teams have different scheduling, and tests are nice TODO's.

There are also always bugs detected after shipping (usually in beta), which need to be accounted for.

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#69

I'm a bit torn on Fix-it weeks. They are nice but many bugs simply aren't worth fixing. Generally, if they were worth fixing - they would have been fixed. I do appreciate though that certain people, often very good detail oriented engineers, find large backlogs incredibly frustrating so I support fix-it weeks even if there isn't clear business ROI.

A greedy algorithm (in the academic sense, although I suppose also in the colloquial sense) isn't the optimal solution to every problem. Sometimes doing the next most valuable thing at a given step can still lead you down a path where you're stuck at a local optimum, and the only way to get somewhere better is to do something that might not be the most valuable thing measured at the current moment only; fixing bugs is the exact type of thing that sometimes has a low initial return but can pay dividends down the line.

Re: We stopped roadmap work for a week and fixed bugs

#70
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find most bugs take less time to fix than it takes time to verify and reproduce.

LLMs have helped me here the most. Adding copious detailed logging across the app on demand, then inspecting the logs to figure out the bug and even how to reproduce it.

Yes. I often just copy the whole core dump, and feed it into the prompt.
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