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After my dad died, we found the love letters

jenn.site

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Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok... This is writing about a real person. I certainly hope you don't see yourself as so one dimensional, why should others be?

What?

I think they may have replied to the wrong comment

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#402

Jesus Christ capitalize the start of sentences. Tech bros, stop butchering language to feel cool.

10 years ago people like you were called 'grammar nazis' - a term clearly out of fashion but the sentiment remains. An excellent article, to be nit-picked for a dumb reason as this

A grammar nazi thing to do would be me complaining about you using an en dash when you meant to use an em dash. Or using single quotes when you should be using double quotes. But I don't really care because you're just making a short Internet comment.

Capitalizing sentences is basic usability and readability. We should care about usability and readability.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#403
post #395

Coming out in the late 80's was not easy in most places (maybe easier if you grew up in Manhattan or San Francisco) and AIDS was a death sentence. Lots of lives have been wasted because of the stigma and the disease. Somehow related, I had to go through my father in-law papers after his death, and I have seen papers that probably were not meant to be seen ever. I am now part of this secret. The weird part is that I f…

> Somehow related, I had to go through my father in-law papers after his death, and I have seen papers that probably were not meant to be seen ever. I am now part of this secret. The weird part is that I feel that I cannot talk about it to anyone in the universe. For the first time in my life, I feel the burden of keeping secret until I die. There is no therapy for it.

I obviously can't know what exactly you found, or how it might affect you or others, but with a few specific exceptions like knowledge of imminent harm to yourself or others, there isn't really something that's outside of the purview of what you can talk to a therapist about. You'd still need someone you feel you can trust with being open with your emotions with, and that's a difficult thing for a lot of people even without as giant secrets as you seem to be burdened with, but in a lot of ways when it comes to stuff like this, there isn't really therapy "for" specific things as much as just a general practice of how to deal with things that are tough emotionally in general. I'm not sure if your reference to previously believing in truth and facts being the best solution is intended to mean that therapy is something you would have considered in the past, or if it's conveying something closer to a "radial honesty" type approach, but if there's any chance you've ever considered talking a therapist before, I'd urge you to consider if it's really out of the question for what you're specifically going through. I'm of the firm opinion that pretty much everyone in the world likely would benefit from some amount of therapy, and a good therapist wouldn't just immediately insist on you revealing the intimate details of your pain to be able to start helping you through it (and it's possible that depending on specifically why you feel the way you do, it may not even be necessary for them to ever know them in order to help you learn to live with it in a way that's less painful).

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#404
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all of what you say, and while I thought the author was very good, I think calling him a coward was an unnecessary stroke of vanity and bitterness. For the same reason that no one can ever know what's inside another person's mind, much less a child understand their parents.

He was so afraid of coming out that he FORCED his wife to never divorce him and kept a lover on the side while cheating on him as well with multiple partners at the heights of the AIDS epidemic while lying to him that they had a future that he was too scared to ever make a reality. If that's not a coward, then I don't think you and I can agree on very simple definitions of words like "coward".

"Coward" is really not the kind of word that admits "very simple definitions" that people can agree on, no.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#405
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's judging people, and there's judging actions. - Getting married under societal pressure even when you're pretty sure you're gay: I'm willing to cut him some slack on this. - Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife at risk of disease, but OK, you've been placed in a messed up, lose-lose situation. - Telling a lover you want to be exclusive, and getting him to move to a completely new country,…

>Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife at risk of disease, but OK In what world is this ever "OK"?

[deleted]

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#407
post #343
post #75

Ouch. This hits incredibly hard. I’ve been this dad who sits frozen at the TV every evening. I had the affairs with the emotionally unavailable men, and became one myself. Before you judge the man in this story too harshly — and there’s certainly much to judge, especially given the follow-up post — consider the environment he and I grew up in. Being gay as a young teenager in the early 1990s could feel literally like…

There's judging people, and there's judging actions. - Getting married under societal pressure even when you're pretty sure you're gay: I'm willing to cut him some slack on this. - Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife at risk of disease, but OK, you've been placed in a messed up, lose-lose situation. - Telling a lover you want to be exclusive, and getting him to move to a completely new country,…

> There is simply no excuse for this.

The fault is here:

> my parents were not a love match. at 27 and 26, they were embarrassingly old by the standards of their small chinese port town. all four of my grandparents exerted enormous pressure to force them together.

You have an entire community that exerted enough social pressure to force two people together by fiat who clearly did not want to be together. Reading between the lines: a closeted gay male and a woman being excessively pressured to produce a child NOW before getting too old.

At that point, you've created such a highly aberrant social situation that you're guaranteed to get pathological behaviors.

After the community generated such a screwed up situation, it is difficult for me to assign much fault to the couple involved rather than see them both as unfortunate victims.

I may not approve, but I find it difficult to blame.

> So you use the societal pressure that forced you into your situation to keep her from leaving, stealing decades of her life that she could have potentially had with someone who would have made her happier: There is simply no excuse for this.

Why are you assuming that the social pressure that forced them together magically went away and assigning both agency and blame solely to the husband? Why is the community pressure somehow easier to deal with 10 years/15 years/20 years later? The fact that the wife could be browbeaten back into line shows that the community social pressure very much did not decrease or become easier to deal with over time.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#408

I'm a dad too, and I'm in a somewhat similar situation. My son is under five, and it feels like I'm still at the very beginning of his story. I've known I was gay since high school, probably even earlier, but I kept choosing whatever seemed like the easiest path. It felt easier to stay closeted. Easier to date a woman. Easier to move in together, propose, get married, and even have a child than to face my truth. I lo…

Even if your wife never manages to forgive you for what happened, I think there might be a much stronger chance than you might realize that you eventually have a much more meaningful relationship with your son by being your true self with him. He's young enough that in a lot of ways, the version of you he loves might not really be based that much on the construction you describe as much as the fact that he knows you love him and the experiences you share (and will hopefully continue to share) together. I think it's more likely that continuing to repress how you feel for years to come will take an emotional toll on you that makes it harder to be able to truly emotionally connect with him at the level you'd like than the fallout of revealing the truth sooner.

For what it's worth, you also may be surprised about how willing even your wife is to accept this. I obviously don't know anything about your situation, and there's any number of things that can influence how loved ones react to something like this, but I have direct knowledge of a situation fairly similar to yours that turned out quite well; my aunt on my father's side has only one child, a daughter from her first husband, who ended up coming out as gay at some point when my cousin was fairly young. They divorced, and from what I'm aware of, continued to co-parent civilly, and my cousin would spent time with each of them during holidays (e.g. she's always spent Christmas Eve with my aunt and our grandparents and Christmas Day with her father). Almost thirty years later, both my aunt and uncle have been remarried happily for years, and nobody cares that my uncle happens to be gay. If anything, I have to assume that literally everyone is much happier in the current situation than they would be if things had gone differently and he had never come out. I don't pretend that any of us can know how things will turn out for you and your family whichever path you choose, but I truly think that if you decide to tell the truth, you'll be giving all three of you the best chance at happiness in the long run.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 57, that means he entered university during the early to mid 1980s. That was peak AIDS phobia (for good reason), and the anti-gay rhetoric was also at its peak. There was a lot more to lose coming out during those days, beyond just marriage and family cold-shoulders. By good reason, I mean people were panicked because people didn’t know which activities could spread the virus. Anyone else remember toilet seat fear…

Describing it as "good reason" is something. But I don't think you meant it that way. For anyone reading that wasn't around it was very much an irrational hysteria. The bigots latched on to it to spread fear and justify their dehumanization of gay people. There were people that tried to bring reason and science to the conversation but they were drowned out by the panic/bigotry. There was no good reason for the AIDS p…

I knew as I wrote that someone would feel compelled to respond. Too late to unwind.

It’s only in hindsight and it wasn’t just bigots. Safer sex as we know it today was directly from the AIDS scare.

AIDS was no less than a death sentence. It was incurable, untreatable, and the cancer after-effects were pretty nasty. Broad research and public transparency took a long time to take hold and that left regular people speculating for years.

Even medical doctors turned away suspected AIDs patients, because everyone was pretty scared.

For a bit, even as a kid I remember it being on par or scarier than nuclear war because so much was unknown.

Re: After my dad died, we found the love letters

#410
post #407
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's judging people, and there's judging actions. - Getting married under societal pressure even when you're pretty sure you're gay: I'm willing to cut him some slack on this. - Having gay affairs while you're married: It puts your wife at risk of disease, but OK, you've been placed in a messed up, lose-lose situation. - Telling a lover you want to be exclusive, and getting him to move to a completely new country,…

> There is simply no excuse for this. The fault is here: > my parents were not a love match. at 27 and 26, they were embarrassingly old by the standards of their small chinese port town. all four of my grandparents exerted enormous pressure to force them together. You have an entire community that exerted enough social pressure to force two people together by fiat who clearly did not want to be together. Reading betw…

A person can be both a victimizer and a victim, in fact probably most are. Victim status does not excuse the victimizers actions, even if it sometimes helps explain them. We can study the root causes to help prevent it in the future and simultaneously realize that the man was a scumbag.
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