Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 84 posts

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#21

Post by stocksinsmocks »

david38 wrote: post #16

Seems reasonable, but maybe not exactly a weapon. It is used to subdue someone, but not as a threat. Should be a parallel class. And while the intended assault is a sexual assault, a date rape drug still incapacitates you, which easily classifies as kidnapping, unlawful detainment, etc.

I would have thought poisoning someone, even with a sedative, would already be a serious crime. This makes me wonder if this is addressing a weakness in the force of law or if it’s political pandering to look tough on a class of crime without changing anything.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#22

Post by Beijinger »

andrewflnr wrote: post #9
purplepatrick wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Germany has a written legal code. This could mean that punishments are more strictly classified than under a, say, precedence-based common law system. Changing the classification could move these kinds of crimes into harsher punishment bands.

The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege]

If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm?

In the US the outcome may be very different.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#24

Post by cindyllm »

Beijinger wrote: post #22
andrewflnr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

[dead]

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#25

Post by andrewflnr »

Beijinger wrote: post #22
andrewflnr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

How do you think that bears on my post, which is a variation on "please write the damn law, but in a sensical way please"?

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#27

Post by Klaus23 »

sebst wrote: post #2

Could someone with a background in law explain the advantage of a reclassification over imposing the same penalties on this particular group of substances? Because outside of the legal definition, I would not call those “weapons” in everyday language. They are a thing on their own…

I don't have a background in law, but here are some suggestions. The German penal code often imposes harsher punishments for the same offense if a weapon was involved. Rape, for example, carries a minimum sentence of two years. If a weapon is present, it is a minimum of three years. If the weapon is used, the minimum sentence is 5 years.

Before the change, date rape drugs would have fallen under a minimum of three years because of a separate clause.

Classifying them as weapons would also affect crimes other than rape.

Additionally, if legal substances can be used as date rape drugs, classifying them as weapons would give the police more authority to act in certain situations.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#29

Post by im3w1l »

jonahrd wrote: post #17
im3w1l wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug. Does it actually work that way in the real world?

Yes, people can and do recreationally take GHB quite often. (also commonly used in date rape cases) The same can be said for MDMA, and others

Let me clarify. I meant the following. Assume ghb is found and evidence of sex. The woman claims she didn't take it and didn't want to have sex. Wouldn't this be enough for a conviction?

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#30

Post by Beijinger »

andrewflnr wrote: post #25
Beijinger wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

How do you think that bears on my post, which is a variation on "please write the damn law, but in a sensical way please"?

You can't write a law for every possible situation. And many laws were introduced because they were committed, and they realized, there is no law to punish the person.

English common law had many good ideas. The US criminal system may be a mess, but the underlying ideas are good. Not everybody can be Norway.... ;-)

Post reply on HN