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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#421

Post by roenxi »

conartist6 wrote: post #404
robertakarobin wrote: post #108

I was very young when my mom started Prozac but do remember how angry and sad she was before compared to after. Years later there was a time when me and my sister noticed our mom was acting a bit strange -- more snappish and irritable than usual, and she even started dressing differently. Then at dinner she announced proudly that she had been off Prozac for a month. My sister and I looked at each other and at the sam…

That's what freaks me out about these drugs. You-on-the-pill becomes you, and you can't ever stop.

I suppose the "good" news is that is just how life goes. Conceptually similar comparison to someone who is hungry and someone who isn't - the tendency towards snapishness is definitely there. Who someone is becomes unstable of long stretches of time (unless they are very boring), it results more from the present conditions that involve them than anything else.

The main issue with drugs is they are more likely to have unexpected or socially harmful side effects than most things.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#422

Post by drekipus »

dartharva wrote: post #393
robertakarobin wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cured it by finding meaning and beauty in the world. That's incredibly fortunate and I'm very jealous of you. How would you recommend one goes about finding meaning and beauty? I'm fortunate to have had lots of unique experiences and traveled to lots of unique places and still haven't found the fulfillment that you seem to. That's basically what depression is: a debilitating feeling of lack of fulfillment, withou…

That's exactly the problem, "meaning in life" has no static definition and there is no possible way to explain it in general terms, even for people who proclaim to have "found" it. Pills, on the other hand, are easy to understand. This is not to say that they are a viable substitute in any way, but it does explain why so many prefer substance treatments.

That's a good consideration.

Meaning in life is hard and personal. Some might have no idea where to start.

But I'd argue (somewhat pointlessly as I'm not going to change anything) -- This is the role that society, traditions, family, etc. has: "to bring people up" swimming in the same stream, given a purpose and meaning, etc.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#423

Post by GOD_Over_Djinn »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #373
GOD_Over_Djinn wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the first search results for me was a paper published in Nature. Other top results were from respected institutions like the NIH and Harvard University. Hardly grifters or crazies. The caveat you cite applies to basically any and all internet (or even media) consumption, and is therefore a non-argument.

Look, I can tell you've got a chip on your shoulder about this and are probably a conspiracy theorist, so I'm not going to argue anymore.

[flagged]

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#424

Post by GOD_Over_Djinn »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #409
brendoelfrendo wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I can tell you've got a chip on your shoulder about this and are probably a conspiracy theorist, so I'm not going to argue anymore.

Maybe chip on their shoulder, but the claim of conspiracy theorist is completely unwarranted. The impression you give off is that you decided upfront their sources are bad and you're going to knee-jerk reject their evidence no matter what.

[flagged]

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#425

Post by squigz »

drekipus wrote: post #319
collingreen wrote: post #313

This should get locked. People are horrible.

Depression is literally a lack of meaning and beauty. This gets imposed on us by society through social norms, and increasingly not working for people But rather than fixing society, we will impose experimental drugs on kids. In some cases altering their lives irreversibily It absolutely should be discussed and openly talked about

Maybe because "Fixing society" (putting aside questions of what that even means...) is going to take a long, long time and a lot of effort. Which isn't to say we shouldn't continue to fix it (hint: we do!) but it doesn't mean we should just ignore other ways of helping our kids.

> we will impose experimental drugs on kids

What a terribly disengeuous way of putting it! "Imposing" implies there's not a choice. And all drugs are experimental in that we are constantly learning about the effects they have on us and adjusting our knowledge accordingly.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#426

Post by cjfd »

pizzafeelsright wrote: post #230
robertakarobin wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, us too. Beats us. Sure wasn't around our house, and we can't imagine any family/friends/TV/whatever he may have learned it from.

[flagged]

It is great that that works for you but I don't think you should assume that what works for you is applicable in every situation.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#427

Post by logicchains »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #193
GOD_Over_Djinn wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Probably because the commenter is not a medical professional and isn't qualified to judge the veracity of anything they find. "Do your own research" is a fucking plague on our modern world and is why the internet is like wall to wall grifters now. By all means, Google whatever you like, but if you show up to a doctors office waving WebMD sheets in a medical professionals face, you are going to be mocked and you deser…

>Probably because the commenter is not a medical professional and isn't qualified to judge the veracity of anything they find.

The average medical professional is worst-placed to judge the veracity of any studies they find than the average engineer or mathematician who's done a solid statistics and probability course. Medical students are assessed on their ability to memorise and regurgitate facts, not on their ability to conduct statistical analysis.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#428

Post by drekipus »

robertakarobin wrote: post #337
drekipus wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pills are for people who feel depressed but don't have something to be depressed about -- they have food, shelter, friends, opportunities to contribute and be productive, nothing traumatic has happened, but they feel hopeless anyway This warrants a whole different discussion, and I'll be down voted for it, but one that's never addressed: quality over quantity. Pills are the individuals response to a society that fe…

> I cured it by finding meaning and beauty in the world. That's incredibly fortunate and I'm very jealous of you. How would you recommend one goes about finding meaning and beauty? I'm fortunate to have had lots of unique experiences and traveled to lots of unique places and still haven't found the fulfillment that you seem to. That's basically what depression is: a debilitating feeling of lack of fulfillment, withou…

> I'm fortunate to have had lots of unique experiences and traveled to lots of unique places

For comparison I've barely traveled more than 1000kms. Never had a passport. Travel is not related.

> where day-to-day life was focused on building and fixing things to survive, then I would have felt very fulfilled and done quite well.

Incorrect assumption; It's not the building and busy-ness. And the experience doing hobbies supports that. Nothing fills that "hole".

The feeling, the "hole" you're missing, is a combi-mix of purpose/meaning/larger-picture. I know it because I also had it. Many people try politics to fill their hole too, which also doesn't work: political parties are not big enough.

I'm not going to try to persuade you to change your life, I'm going to talk about what did it for me, and you (and others) can spectate and speculate, take and leave whatever you want. I'm sure I'll get flagged anyway.

My great realization is that nothing is set in stone, everything changes at all times, and humans have survived it.

> a debilitating feeling of lack of fulfillment, without any idea of what's missing.

A good way to start out is to start thinking about: what is your mission? What is your tribe in the world stage? are there messages or lessons from the ancestors of your tribe?

Shy away from getting over-scientific. Simple broad points. The universe is in constant change and chaos. But humans have survived for a long time. We have "lizard" brains that give us reactions, then we have learned / ingrained behavior on top of that, through all this time we've encoded "how to survive" in our brains and throughout our history; we are a storytelling species, so what stories do we have from history (note: not about history, but from history).

Realising stories, like fairytales,(ie: Rumpelstiltskin) etc - ARE old stories that ENCODE information as a way to pass knowledge from culture to culture. WHAT information is in there? what are they trying to tell us? This is the tribe of "humans" telling us something from the past, which is actually absurdly interesting and fulfilling to try and learn from.

Yes this is all "woo-woo" stuff, none of this is going to be a revelation to you. I'll probably look like a quack, but You can have a ponder about it, and realise that there's a big group that you're a part of, and there is a bit of a cosmic mission, and history plays out every day.

this won't give you purpose or fill the hole, but I think you might start to chip away at some different things in your life, (or you won't and I've just wasted 5 mins of your time, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ who cares)

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#429

Post by drekipus »

squigz wrote: post #425
drekipus wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depression is literally a lack of meaning and beauty. This gets imposed on us by society through social norms, and increasingly not working for people But rather than fixing society, we will impose experimental drugs on kids. In some cases altering their lives irreversibily It absolutely should be discussed and openly talked about

Maybe because "Fixing society" (putting aside questions of what that even means...) is going to take a long, long time and a lot of effort. Which isn't to say we shouldn't continue to fix it (hint: we do!) but it doesn't mean we should just ignore other ways of helping our kids. > we will impose experimental drugs on kids What a terribly disengeuous way of putting it! "Imposing" implies there's not a choice. And all…

> implies there's not a choice

There isn't a choice if * Questing it is "morally wrong" as it's made out to be * It's the only solution.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#430

Post by logicchains »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #220
techietim wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my 7-year-old son just started half that dose This is horrifying.

No, it's not. Medicine is advancing. We're increasingly able to understand and adjust dysfunctions that cause major, negative quality of life impacts. These dysfunctions have always existed, we're just getting better at finding ways to help people work through it.

This is empirically false; the rates of chronic physical and mental illnesses nowadays are are far higher than e.g. 50 years ago, and these are serious illnesses, not the kind of thing that could have been just not noticed.
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