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Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

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Re: Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

#41

Post by spamizbad »

tillk wrote: post #33
spamizbad wrote: post #23

As a developer without a CS degree (or any degree) my experience has been mixed. Unfortunately, I'd say the cons outweigh the pros... Pros: -It's proof-positive you are capable of learning on your own; a very desirable trait. -No/fewer student loans to pay off. A bigger plus than you could imagine. -Less debt, faster hands-on experience, and the general experience of being scrappy leaner might mean you're better foun…

You can learn almost everything you listed as a "Con". It's not always easy, but you learn as you go. I've picked up a lot on the go and for everything else I have to be honest with myself and spend more time on it (e.g. evening, weekend or take a course). I don't have a degree either. I just never stop learning. I'm sure it would be similar with a degree. All in all, I am doing pretty awesome. I could have a lot of…

> If those are your challenges, you might work for the wrong people. Reading this makes me a little sad.

No need to be sad :) I'm actually well-compensated and have a job I enjoy. It's just that I have "been around the block" and wanted to share my trials and tribulations.

Re: Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

#43

Post by atlantic »

I don't have a degree, and I've working as a web developer for 12 years, with a steady improvement in wages and benefits from year to year. Worked first in start-ups, then in SMEs, and then in IT consultancy, now a freelancer.

Absolutely no lack of work, no wage discrimination from employers either - just a few large institutions that I can't apply for because they filter candidates on the basis of a degree. I get a fair number of spontaneous offers on the strength of my LinkedIn profile, even though I'm living in a backwater.

As others mentioned on this thread, the first 2-3 years are the hardest, as you struggle to view yourself as a developer, and to make others see you as such. At that point it is quite important to have a clear vision of where you want to go, otherwise you will easily get sidetracked into alternative career paths with some CS content (helpdesk, networks, analyst,...).

Lately I've begun to feel some disadvantages from not having a degree. My theoretical foundation is patchy, and the mathematics are lacking for certain areas. I don't have a clear overall vision of CS which a degree would have given me. I do spend time studying, almost every day in fact, but it's given over to new technologies which I need on the job, not to more theoretical topics, so I'm not making much progress on the CS front.

To find a job, your best bet is to start participating now in open-source projects, and later try to get an internship somewhere for a few months (maybe even just helping out at a friend's shop or company), in order to bolster your CV. Unfortunately IT jobs are very much a catch-22 thing: you need experience in order to obtain experience. So getting the first couple of professional experiences in there is crucial to landing your first proper job.

Re: Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

#44

Post by ww520 »

jessedhillon wrote: post #40
lutusp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another subjective one: A lack of undergraduate math may make learning about certain topics more challenging. You're making a common but often mistaken assumption -- that "unschooled" equals "uneducated". The fact that a person doesn't have a degree doesn't mean he knows no math or physics. > It will be used as an excuse to pay you less money That's certainly true. The unanswered question is whether the increase in…

This is my back-of-the-envelope speculation: Suppose you go to UC Berkeley for CS. A nice, round, accurate number for that is ~$52,000/year. Suppose you work during for two of those years (I did, not everyone can), and your overall obligations are $208,000 for four years, less your wages -- say a meager $18,000/year. Also, you would have had to pay rent whether you went to school or not, so that is not truly a cost o…

Does UC Berkeley really cost $52K per year on tuition? I thought it's a state funded public school. Just curious.

Re: Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

#46

Post by gojomo »

Three years into your career (and even less if you're great), formal credentials will matter very little compared to demonstrated aptitude/performance.

But still: you may want to self-educate on some things that a formal CS education was sure to cover, like algorithmic complexity, advanced data structures, metaprogramming, some extra stats/discrete math, etc. – so that you don't have blatant gaps in your mental toolset that mark you as a purely improvisational/'raised by wolves' coder.

Once you do, and know your skills are comparable to peers with a formal degree, feel free to apply to jobs that may explicitly request a degree: just be ready and open with the case that you have equivalent experience. (That is: even if a listing doesn't say 'BS CS or equivalent experience', assume that it does.)

Re: Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

#47

Post by jessedhillon »

ww520 wrote: post #44
jessedhillon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my back-of-the-envelope speculation: Suppose you go to UC Berkeley for CS. A nice, round, accurate number for that is ~$52,000/year. Suppose you work during for two of those years (I did, not everyone can), and your overall obligations are $208,000 for four years, less your wages -- say a meager $18,000/year. Also, you would have had to pay rent whether you went to school or not, so that is not truly a cost o…

Does UC Berkeley really cost $52K per year on tuition? I thought it's a state funded public school. Just curious.

Allegedly, yes: http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/home/cost.htm

These are total costs, not just tuition.

Re: Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

#48

Post by randomdata »

jessedhillon wrote: post #40
lutusp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another subjective one: A lack of undergraduate math may make learning about certain topics more challenging. You're making a common but often mistaken assumption -- that "unschooled" equals "uneducated". The fact that a person doesn't have a degree doesn't mean he knows no math or physics. > It will be used as an excuse to pay you less money That's certainly true. The unanswered question is whether the increase in…

This is my back-of-the-envelope speculation: Suppose you go to UC Berkeley for CS. A nice, round, accurate number for that is ~$52,000/year. Suppose you work during for two of those years (I did, not everyone can), and your overall obligations are $208,000 for four years, less your wages -- say a meager $18,000/year. Also, you would have had to pay rent whether you went to school or not, so that is not truly a cost o…

By your numbers, someone going straight into the workforce could save about $50,000 each of the first four years the peers are in school, amounting to ~$2M by the time the person approaches retirement age. That is compared to the ~$3M that could be made by the gains in post-graduation income by retirement. However, the cost of the $140,000 education by the time you reach retirement is ~$1M so you have really only just compensated for the education with the higher income. And all that assumes that you will be able to earn more with said degree. While it certainly happens, I am doubtful that it holds true for all graduates. There is a lot of financial risk there, for what appears to be little to no monetary reward even when you do win.

With that said, there are a near infinite number of positive reasons to partake in a post-secondary education. It doesn't need to come with better jobs and higher incomes to make it worthwhile. I find it rather sad that many feel we have to resort to showing higher future incomes to even justify going.

Re: Can programmers without CS degrees find jobs?

#49

Post by lutusp »

jessedhillon wrote: post #40
lutusp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another subjective one: A lack of undergraduate math may make learning about certain topics more challenging. You're making a common but often mistaken assumption -- that "unschooled" equals "uneducated". The fact that a person doesn't have a degree doesn't mean he knows no math or physics. > It will be used as an excuse to pay you less money That's certainly true. The unanswered question is whether the increase in…

This is my back-of-the-envelope speculation: Suppose you go to UC Berkeley for CS. A nice, round, accurate number for that is ~$52,000/year. Suppose you work during for two of those years (I did, not everyone can), and your overall obligations are $208,000 for four years, less your wages -- say a meager $18,000/year. Also, you would have had to pay rent whether you went to school or not, so that is not truly a cost o…

> In my opinion, the gains in opportunity are far and away the more valuable win with a degree.

It is a very simple question of cost versus benefit. And tuition rates are rising so fast that any conclusion arrived at by calculation is necessarily a temporary one:

Washington Post: "Chart of the day: College tuition is out of control" [2011]:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/chart-of...

A quote: " ... since 1978, college tuition and fees have been getting expensive at a much, much faster rate than even medical care"

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