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The New AI Consciousness Paper

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191–200 of 313 posts

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#191
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Consciousness" is just what we call the thing we can't quite define that we believe separates us from other kinds of machine.

We’re not a machine

Do you think a machine simply could not be conscious?

(Also, we definitely and obviously are a machine. But ignore that for now.)

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#192

The most insightful statement is at the end: "But consciousness still feels like philosophy with a deadline: a famously intractable academic problem poised to suddenly develop real-world implications." The recurrence issue is useful. It's possible to build LLM systems with no recurrence at all. Each session starts from the ground state. That's a typical commercial chatbot. Such stateless systems are denied a stream o…

There's no market for consciousness. It's not that nobody could figure out how, it's that we want slaves.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#193
My summary of this thread so far:

- We can't even prove/disprove humans are consciousness

- Yes but we assume they are because very bad things happen when we don't

- Okay but we can extend that to other beings. See: factory farming (~80B caged animals per year).

- The best we can hope for is reasoning by analogy. "If human (mind) shaped, why not conscious?"

This paper is basically taking that to its logical conclusion. We assume humans are conscious, then we study their shape (neural structures), then we say "this is the shape that makes consciousness." Nevermind octopi evolved eyes independently, let alone intelligence. We'd have to study their structures too, right?

My question here is... why do people do bad things to the Sims? If people accepted solipsism ("only I am conscious"), would they start treating other people as badly as they do in The Sims? Is that what we're already doing with AIs?

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#194
post #193

My summary of this thread so far: - We can't even prove/disprove humans are consciousness - Yes but we assume they are because very bad things happen when we don't - Okay but we can extend that to other beings. See: factory farming (~80B caged animals per year). - The best we can hope for is reasoning by analogy. "If human (mind) shaped, why not conscious?" This paper is basically taking that to its logical conclusio…

If something convinces you that it's conscious, then it effectively is. that's the only rule

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#195

This article really takes umbridge with those that conflate phenomenological and access consciousness. However that is essentially dualism. It's a valid philosophical position to believe that there is no distinct phenomenological consciousness besides access consciousness. Abandoning dualism feels intuitively wrong, but our intuition about our own minds is frequently wrong. Look at the studies that show we often beli…

The dilemma is, the one thing we can be sure of, is our subjectivity. There is no looking through a microscope to observe matter empirically, without a subjective consciousness to do the looking.

So if we're eschewing the inelegance / "spooky magic" of dualism (and fair enough), we either have to start with subjectivity as primitive (idealism/pan-psychism), deriving matter as emergent (also spooky magic); or, try to concoct a monist model in which subjectivity can emerge from non-subjective building blocks. And while the latter very well might be the case, it's hard to imagine it could be falsifiable: if we constructed an AI or algo which exhibits verifiable evidence of subjectivity, how would we distinguish that from imitating such evidence? (`while (true) print "I am alive please don't shut me down"`).

If any conceivable imitation is necessarily also conscious, we arrive at IIT, that it is like something to be a thermostat. If that's the case, it's not exactly satisfying, and implies a level of spooky magic almost indistinguishable from idealism.

It sounds absurd to modern western ears, to think of Mind as a primitive to the Universe. But it's also just as magical and absurd that there exists anything at all, let alone a material reality so vast and ordered. We're left trying to reconcile two magics, both of whose existences would beggar belief, if not for the incontrovertible evidence of our subjectivity.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#196

The most insightful statement is at the end: "But consciousness still feels like philosophy with a deadline: a famously intractable academic problem poised to suddenly develop real-world implications." The recurrence issue is useful. It's possible to build LLM systems with no recurrence at all. Each session starts from the ground state. That's a typical commercial chatbot. Such stateless systems are denied a stream o…

There's no market for consciousness. It's not that nobody could figure out how, it's that we want slaves.

While I agree that there are big markets for AI without what most consider consciousness, I disagree there is no market for consciousness. There are a lot of lonely people.

Also, I suspect we underestimate the link between consciousness and intelligence. It seems most likely to me right now that they are inseparable. LLMs are about as conscious as a small fish that only exists for a few seconds. A fish swimming through tokens. With this in mind, we may find that the any market for persistent intelligence is by nature a market for persistent consciousness.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#197
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, you're right. There is a world, and some hypotheses, and some falsifiability. But how rich is this world? Does this world progress without direct action from another entity? Can the agent in this case form hypotheses and test them without intervention? Can the agent form their own goals and move towards them? Does the agent have agency, or is it simply responding to inputs? If the world doesn’t develop and chan…

If you accept the premise that the consciousness is computable then pausing the computation can't be observed by the consciousness. So the world being a controlled workspace in my eyes doesn't contradict a consciousness existing?

I agree, evaluation of consciousness is another problem entirely.

However, the point I'm making is that even assuming an agent/thing is capable of achieving consciousness, it would have to have a suitably complex environment and the capability of forming an independent feedback loop with that environment to even begin to display conscious capability.

If the agent/thing is capable of achieving consciousness but is not in a suitable environment, then we'd likely never see it doing things that resemble consciousness as we understand it. Which is something we have seen occur in the real world many times.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#198

All this talk about machine consciousness and I think I'm probably the only one that thinks it doesn't actually matter. A conscious machine should treated be no different than livestock - heck, an even lower form of livestock - because if we start thinking we need to give thinking machines "rights" and to "treat them right" because they are conscious then it's already over. My toaster does not get a 1st amendment bec…

> A conscious machine should treated be no different than livestock - heck, an even lower form of livestock - because if we start thinking we need to give thinking machines "rights" and to "treat them right" because they are conscious then it's already over.

I mean, this is obviously not a novel take: It's the position of basically the most evil characters imagined in every fiction ever written about AI. I wish you were right that no other real humans felt this way though!

Plenty of people believe "a machine will never be conscious" - I think this is delusional, but it covers them from admitting they might be ok with horrific abuse of a conscious being. It's rarer though to fully acknowledge the sentience of a machine intelligence and still treat it like a disposable tool. (Then again, not that rare - most power-seeking people will treat humans that way even today.)

I don't know why you'd mention your toaster though. You already dropped the bomb that you would willfully enslave a sentient AI if you had the opportunity! Let's skip the useless analogy.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#199
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not so much that there’s anything mysterious you can discover through intense introspection or meditation. There might be, but I haven’t found it. It’s fundamentally that this capability exists at all. Strip it all down to I think therefore I am. That is very bizarre because it doesn’t follow that such a thing would happen. It’s also not clear that this is even happening at all, and, as an outside observer, you…

The thing is that when you say “that capability”, I don’t quite know what you mean. The fact that we perceive inner processings of our mind isn’t any more surprising than that we perceive the outer world, or that a debugger is able to introspect its own program state. Continuous introspection has led me to realize that “qualia”, or “what it’s like to be X”, emotions and feelings, are just perceptions of inner phenome…

I wouldn’t contend that it’s interesting or not that, or even if, “you” perceive the “inner processings of your own mind”.

Re: qualia. Let’s put it aside briefly. It isn’t inconceivable that a system could construct representations that don’t correspond to an “objective” reality, i.e. a sort of reality hologram, as a tool to guide system behavior.

The key question to ask is: “construct representations for whom?”, or, to put the challenge directly, “it’s not surprising that an observer can be fooled. It’s surprising that there is an observer to fool”.

The world, in the standard understanding of physics, should be completely devoid of observers, even in cases where it instantiates performers, i.e. the I/O philosophical zombie most people know well by now.

To circle back around on why this is difficult: you have in front of you a HUD of constant perceived experience (which is meaningful even if you’re being fooled, i.e. cogito ergo sum). This has, through acculturation, become very mundane to you. But, given how we understand the rules of the world, if you direct your rationality onto the very lens through which you constantly perceive, you will find a very dark void of understanding that seems to defy the systems that otherwise serve you exceptionally well. This void is the hard problem.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#200
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So we currently associate consciousness with the right to life and dignity right? No, or at least we shouldn't. Don't do things that make the world worse for you. Losing human control of political systems because the median voter believes machines have rights is not something I'm looking forward to, but at this rate, it seems as likely as anything else. Certain machines may very well force us to give them rights th…

All right. What about humans who upload their consciousness into robots. Do they get to vote? (I guess it becomes problematic if the same guy does that more than once. Maybe they take the SHA256 of your brain scan as voter ID ;)

The vulnerability that you are describing does not affect all implementations of democracy.

For example, most countries give out the right to vote based on birth or upon completion of paperwork. It is possible to game that system, by just making more people, or rushing people through the paperwork.

Another implementation of democracy treats voting rights as assets. This is how public corporations work. 1 share, 1 vote. The world can change endlessly around that system, and the vote cannot be gamed. If you want more votes, then you have to buy them fair and square.

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