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Why top firms fire good workers

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Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#201

Post by idiotsecant »

prewett wrote: post #197
idiotsecant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason collective bargaining is wildly unpopular on HN, which is ironic because tech workers are exactly who should be organizing their labor.

Speaking for myself, I see unions as frequently corrupt, being intransigent (such as essentially making Detroit not cost-effective) and just as self-serving as management. Every union experience I have had or hear about involves arbitrary rules (we're not allowed to do that, union rules; you have to get that union to do that). Why would I want to pay dues for that? Furthermore, I see no reason for a union; software d…

Yeah, that's exactly the attitude I was talking about, thanks for the stellar demonstration.

A union isn't any of the things that the capital class wants you to think they are. Have you ever wondered why anti-union propaganda is so well funded? Think about it for a minute.

A union is just when you and your co-workers pool your collective power so that the owners can't push you around. That's it. What you do after that is up to you.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#202

Post by idiotsecant »

koliber wrote: post #172
triceratops wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to be paid the same as all other workers with the same title That's not what unions do. > I like getting personal bonuses based on performance A union doesn't prevent that. Film and TV actors, and professional athletes are in unions. They are not all paid the same. They get lavish bonuses based on performance. Retail and fast food workers are usually not in unions. They don't make much money. A union c…

I never worked at a union workplace. However, I’ve worked with underperforming colleagues who were could not be fired for whatever reason. It was miserable.

You'll forgive me for saying that you sound wildly underqualified to comment on the subject. I have worked in non-union shops and union shops. The union shops have a way better quality of life.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#203

Post by idiotsecant »

gedy wrote: post #84
idiotsecant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason collective bargaining is wildly unpopular on HN, which is ironic because tech workers are exactly who should be organizing their labor.

I can only speak for myself, but I think there is a naive idealist view of (modern, American) unions that gloss over the tradeoffs. I don't want another bureaucratic layer that tells me what to do, and run by yet more HR admin-types. We aren't working in the coal mines or steel mills here in the 1920s. Sorry I'm not interested in that for office jobs. I'm glad they still work in some countries and cultures.

How to loudly announce you've never been in a union.

I am an engineer in a unionized workplace. It's great. I make a ton of money, management is respectful, and work life balance is not based on the whims of whoever has a self-imposed emergency this week. My work is satisfying, and I have an avenue for resolving any complaints I might have with management.

Nobody tells me 'what I can't do' like some kind of anti-union cartoon that some people seem to think represents reality.

Unions aren't for coal miners. They are for anyone who cares about not being abused by the power imbalance inherent to the relationship between owners and laborers.

You are not a temporarily embarrassed billionaire. You have more in common with the steelworkers you seem to disdain so much than you do with them.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#204

Post by idiotsecant »

lynx97 wrote: post #76
palmotea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech attracts the radical independent types. No. I think it's a combination of: 1) HN being associated with a startup incubator, and thus attracting a large contingent of people who see themselves as the boss doing this, not the workers affected; 2) tech attracts a certain kind of gullible person who's easily seduced by tidy little systems like the pop-capitalism of libertarian tracts; and 3) tech workers (until re…

Your point 2 is such a condescending take. I read it as: "Everyone who does not think the same way as I do is gullible and has been seduced, because I am obviously right and they must be weak." This kind behaviour convinces me even more that I dont really trust union people.

'union people' - you mean people who collectively bargain their labor? Do you honestly these people who organize with co-workers to equalize the power imbalance between them and management are a certain kind of 'people'?

Are you one of those people who clutches their pearls and tells on your co-worker to management for discussing how much money they make?

Those are definitely a kind of 'people'.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#206

Post by jimbokun »

mcoliver wrote: post #4

No. The reason top firms part ways with good workers is usually political. Either the manager doesn't like the person regardless of their work abilities, or the manager is not politely savvy enough to ensure their team is being recognized for work that grows or is valuable to the business. Or they get caught up in the endlessly popular reorgs (again management failure). It's a failure of management. Nothing more. Not…

The article is basically describing stack ranking, where regular terminations are part of the company's operating philosophy.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#207

Post by mlrtime »

triceratops wrote: post #184
mlrtime wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that would be the plan, to replicate entertainment industry union pay to the tech industry? Has anyone seriously thought this through or is it just theory.

I mean you're just here repeating the lazy old anti-union talking points with 0 thought. I offered some examples that contradict them. The burden of proof is on you at this point. If not having unions leads to high wages and good working conditions, why aren't retail and fast food workers making bank? Why do they get treated like shit? Please tell us.

I could say the same about pro-union comments. They are repeated every week here and reddit. The only thing I see is that it works in Sweden, or it works here but in a very niche industry. I haven't ever seen one plan where it could work for Software Engineers, that is my point.

So what is the plan?

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#208

Post by mlrtime »

ryandrake wrote: post #200
triceratops wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you're just here repeating the lazy old anti-union talking points with 0 thought. I offered some examples that contradict them. The burden of proof is on you at this point. If not having unions leads to high wages and good working conditions, why aren't retail and fast food workers making bank? Why do they get treated like shit? Please tell us.

It's so wild. So many HN commenters have this exaggerated caricature in their heads about what a Union must be: "Unions mean every worker gets paid the same!" "Unions mean I will make less money!" "Unions make it impossible to fire underperformers!" "Unions are run by bosses whose incentives are different than workers!" "Unions mean I can't plug in my own workstation!" "Unions reward seniority over everything else!"…

Because all those actually happen?

Tell me why I should want a union for myself.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#209

Post by mnemotronic »

I'm sorry, this article reads like something a low-level HR drone was ordered to write with the help of AI. "Come up with an excuse we can feed to the board of directors about why we fired all the high-paid productive SMEs, lost our most profitable customers and tanked our profits this year".

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#210

Post by wakawaka28 »

ryandvm wrote: post #176
idiotsecant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason collective bargaining is wildly unpopular on HN, which is ironic because tech workers are exactly who should be organizing their labor.

Collective bargaining has been unpopular in this industry for so long because 25 years ago pretty much any ADHD autodidact that was interested in tech could get an extremely promising job with nothing more than a high school diploma. Naturally, these individuals had very little interest in waiting in line behind retiring gray-beards for high pay and job security. They experienced that just being interested in tech wa…

Unions can't defeat the forces of supply and demand. If people feel it is in their best interest to take a pay cut, they should be free to do so. If you want to take a job for a lower rate because of a mismatch in experience, union rates can amount to a ban on you getting a job. Likewise, if you can command a higher wage than average, no union should be able to tell you that you're not fit for the pay grade. If the self-taught greybeards don't understand this, they should self-teach themselves some basic economics.
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