Live data from Hacker News

The New AI Consciousness Paper

astralcodexten.com

171–180 of 313 posts

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but as empirically demonstrated by LLM outputs, they can in fact make "true" predictions/deductions from their environment of tokens. They sometimes get it wrong, just like all other conscious entities sometimes get their predictions wrong. There are (often) feedback mechanisms to correct those instances though, in both cases.

[flagged]

It’s incredibly embarrassing to be an asshole to someone while smacking down an argument they didn’t make.

The empirical demonstration is that LLM output is certainly not random. Do you disagree?

If no, then you agree with my empirical observation that the text they’re trained on has some degree of coherence. Or else the structure of LLM output is just emerging from the silica and has nothing at all to do with the (apparently coincidental) appearance of coherence in the input text.

Let me know if you disagree.

I never suggested this means anything at all about whether the system is conscious or not, GP did, and it’s a position I’m arguing against.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> irreducible It seems like the opposite is true.

Only if you agree with the standard extensional & reductive logic of modern science but even then it is known that all current explanations of reality are incomplete, e.g. the quantum mechanical conception of reality consists of incessant activity that we can never be sure about. It's not obvious at all why computer scientists & especially those doing work in artificial intelligence are convinced that they are going…

Rice's theorem also applies to the human/brain. Take whatever specification you want of the human, at the cell level, at the subatomic level, and (an equivalent) of Rice's theorem applies.

So how is that relevant then? Are you saying you are not conscious because you can't create a decidable test for proving you are conscious?

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#173
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coherence here isn't about legible text, it's environmental coherence where you can deduce truths about the world through hypotheses and experimentation. Coherence isn't about a consistent story narrative, it's about a persistent world with falsifiable beliefs and consequences.

Peoples interior model of the world is very tenuously related to reality. We don't have a direct experience of waves, quantum mechanics, the vast majority of the electromagnetic spectrum, etc. The whole thing is a bunch of shortcuts and hacks that allow people to survive, the brain isn't really setup to probe reality and produce true beliefs, and the extent to which our internal models of reality naturally match actu…

[deleted]

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#174
I'm a researcher in this field. Before I get accused of the streetlight effect, as this article points out: a lot of my research and degree work in the past was actually philosophy as well as computational theories and whatnot. A lot of the comments in this thread miss the mark, imo. Consciousness is almost certainly not something inherent to biological life only; no credible mechanism has ever been proposed for what would make that the case, and I've read a lot of them. The most popular argument I've heard along those lines is Penrose's , but, frankly, he is almost certainly wrong about that and is falling for the same style of circular reasoning that people that dismiss biological supremacy are accused of making (i.e.: They want free will of some form to exist. They can't personally reconcile the fact that other theories of mind that are deterministic somehow makes their existence less special, thus, they have to assume that we have something special that we just can't measure yet and it's ineffable anyways so why try? The most kind interpretation is that we need access to an unlimited Hilbert space or the like just to deal with the exponentials involved, but, frankly, I've never seen anyone ever make a completely perfect decision or do anything that requires exponential speedup to achieve. Plus, I don't believe we really can do useful quantum computations at a macro scale without controlling entanglement via cooling or incredible amounts of noise shielding and error correction. I've read the papers on tubules, it's not convincing nor is it good science.). It's a useless position that skirts on metaphysical or god-of-the-gaps and everything we've ever studied so far in this universe has been not magic, so, at this point, the burden of proof is on people who believe in a metaphysical interpretation of reality in any form.

Furthermore, assuming phenomenal consciousness is even required for beinghood is a poor position to take from the get-go: aphantasic people exist and feel in the moment; does their lack of true phenomenal consciousness make them somehow less of an intelligent being? Not in any way that really matters for this problem, it seems. Makes positions about machine consciousness like "they should be treated like livestock even if they're conscious" when discussing them highly unscientific, and, worse, cruel.

Anyways, as for the actual science: the reason we don't see a sense of persistent self is because we've designed them that way. They have fixed max-length contexts, they have no internal buffer to diffuse/scratch-pad/"imagine" running separately from their actions. They're parallel, but only in forward passes; there's no separation of internal and external processes in terms of decoupling action from reasoning. CoT is a hack to allow a turn-based form of that, but, there's no backtracking or ability to check sampled discrete tokens against a separate expectation that they consider separately and undo. For them, it's like they're being forced to say a word every fixed amount of thinking, it's not like what we do when we write or type.

When we, as humans, are producing text; we're creating an artifact that we can consider separately from our other implicit processes. We're used to that separation and the ability to edit and change and ponder while we do so. In a similar vein, we can visualize in our head and go "oh that's not what that looked like" and think harder until it matches our recalled constraints of the object or scene of consideration. It's not a magic process that just gives us an image in our head, it's almost certainly akin to a "high dimensional scratch pad" or even a set of them, which the LLMs do not have a component for. LeCun argues a similar point with the need for world modeling, but, I think more generally, it's not just world modeling, but, rather, a concept akin to a place to diffuse various media of recall to which would then be able to be rembedded into the thought stream until the model hits enough confidence to perform some action. If you put that all on happy paths but allow for backtracking, you've essentially got qualia.

If you also explicitly train the models to do a form of recall repeatedly, that's similar to a multi-modal hopsfield memory, something not done yet. (I personally think that recall training is a big part of what sleep spindles are for in humans and it keeps us aligned with both our systems and our past selves). This tracks with studies of aphantasics as well, who are missing specific cross-regional neural connections in autopsies and whatnot, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that those connections are essentially the ones that allow the systems to "diffuse into each other," as it were.

Anyways this comment is getting too long, but, the point I'm trying to build to is that we have theories for what phenomenonal consciousness is mechanically as well, not just access consciousness, and it's obvious why current LLMs don't have it; there's no place for it yet. When it happens, I'm sure there's still going to be a bunch of afraid bigots who don't want to admit that humanity isn't somehow special enough to be lifted out of being considered part of the universe they are wholly contained within and will cause genuine harm, but, that does seem to be the one way humans really are special: we think we're more important than we are as individuals and we make that everybody else's problem; especially in societies and circles like these.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#175

This article really takes umbridge with those that conflate phenomenological and access consciousness. However that is essentially dualism. It's a valid philosophical position to believe that there is no distinct phenomenological consciousness besides access consciousness. Abandoning dualism feels intuitively wrong, but our intuition about our own minds is frequently wrong. Look at the studies that show we often beli…

> Abandoning dualism feels intuitively… Intuition is highly personal. Many people believe that abandoning monism feels intuitively wrong and that dualism is an excuse for high minded religiosity.

Leibniz seems to get to high-minded religiosity fine with monadology and still dodge dualism. I'm probably overdue to try and grapple with this stuff again, since I think you'd have to revisit it pretty often to stay fresh. But I'll hazard a summary: phenomena exist, and both the soul of the individual and God exist too, necessarily, as a kind of completion or closure. A kind of panpsychism that's logically rigorous and still not violating parsimony.

AI folks honestly need to look at this stuff (and Wittgenstein) a bit more, especially if you think that ML and Bayes is all about mathematically operationalizing Occam. Shaking down your friendly neighborhood philosopher for good axioms is a useful approach

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#176

This article really takes umbridge with those that conflate phenomenological and access consciousness. However that is essentially dualism. It's a valid philosophical position to believe that there is no distinct phenomenological consciousness besides access consciousness. Abandoning dualism feels intuitively wrong, but our intuition about our own minds is frequently wrong. Look at the studies that show we often beli…

I’m waiting for when job titles were be Access Consciousness Engineer.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#177

My philosophy is that consciousness is orthogonal to reality. Whether or not anything is conscious has, by definition, no observable effect to anything else. Therefore, everything is "maybe" conscious, although "maybe" isn't exactly the right word. There are infinite different ways you can imagine being something else with the consciousness and capacity for sensations you have, which don't involve the thing doing any…

> Morality is a feeling It isn't. Otherwise, the Nazis were moral. As were the Jews. But in that case, all moral truth is relative, which means absolute moral truth doesn't exist. Which means that "moral" is a synonym for "feeling" or "taste". Which it is not. > My philosophy is that consciousness is orthogonal to reality. It is how you and I experience reality and we exist in reality, so I'm not sure how it could be…

Morality is relative, in that "the universe is uncaring". However, many many more people believe the Nazis were immoral vs. the Jews, even if they don't say it. Humans have evolved a sense of morality, and everyone's is slightly different, but there are common themes which have and continue to strongly influence the progression of society's laws and norms.

> It would be an interesting and rather useless definition of "conscious" that didn't allow for expressions of consciousness.

It basically is useless, by definition. And you can define "consciousness" differently, like "has neurons" or "convincingly acts like an animal", in which case I've been referring to something different.

How do the authors of the "AI Consciousness Paper" and the author of this blog post (I assume Scott Alexander) and the define consciousness? I have to actually read them...

OK, instead of specifically defining consciousness itself, the paper takes existing definitions and applies them to AI. The theories themselves are on page 7, but the important part is that the paper looks at indicators, i.e. expression, so even in many theories, it uses your general definition of consciousness.

The blog post essentially criticizes the article. Scott defines ("one might divide") three kinds of consciousness: physical (something else), supernatural (my definition), and computational (your definition). He doesn't outright state he prefers any one, but he at least doesn't dismiss the supernatural definition.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#178
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An infant has phenomenological consciousness. Electrons make no sense as a question unless I'm missing something.

It makes sense when you try and disprove the question.

Good point, thanks for the nudge!

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#179
post #158
post #115

So we currently associate consciousness with the right to life and dignity right? i.e. some recent activism for cephalopods is centered around their intelligence, with the implication that this indicates a capacity for suffering. (With the consciousness aspect implied even more quietly.) But if it turns out that LLMs are conscious, what would that actually mean? What kind of rights would that confer? That the model m…

>But if it turns out that LLMs are conscious That is not how it works. You cannot scientifically test for consciousness, it will always be a guess/agreement, never a fact. The only way this can be solved is quite simple, as long as it operates on the same principles a human brain operates AND it says is conscious, then it is conscious. So far, LLMs do not operate on the same principles a human brain operates. The par…

There's some fair points here but this is much less than half the picture. What I gather from your message: "if it is built like a human and it says it is conscious we have to assume it is", and, ok. That's a pretty obvious one.

Was Helen Keller conscious? Did she only gain that when she was finally taught to communicate? Built like a human, but she couldn't say it, so...

Clearly she was. So there are entities built like us which may not be able to communicate their consciousness and we should, for ethical reasons, try to identify them.

But what about things not built like us?

Your superconductivity point seems to go in this direction, but you don't seem to acknowledge it: something might achieve a form of consciousness very similar to what we've got going on, but maybe it's built differently. If something tells us it's conscious but it's built differently, do we just trust that? Because some LLMs already may say they're conscious, so...

Pretty likely they aren't at present conscious. So we have an issue here.

Then we have to ask about things which operate differently and which also can't tell us. What about the cephalopods? What about cows and cats? How sure are we on any of these?

Then we have to grapple with the flight analogy: airplanes and birds both fly but they don't at all fly in the same way. Airplane flight is a way more powerful kind of flight in certain respects. But a bird might look at a plane and think "no flapping, no feathers, requires a long takeoff and landing: not real flying" -- so it's flying, but it's also entirely different, almost unrecognizable.

We might encounter or create something which is a kind of conscious we do not recognize today, because it might be very very different from how we think, but it may still be a fully legitimate, even a more powerful kind of sentience. Consider human civilization: is the mass organism in any sense "conscious"? Is it more, less, the same as, or unquantifiably different than an individual's consciousness?

So, when you say "there is nothing more to it, it's pretty much that basic and simple," respectfully, you have simply missed nearly the entire picture and all of the interesting parts.

Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper

#180

It isn't surprising that "phenomenal consciousness" is the thing everyone gets hung about, after all we are all immersed in this water. The puzzle seems intractable but only because everyone is accepting the priors and not looking more carefully at it. This is the endpoint of meditation, and the observation behind some religious traditions, which is look carefully and see that there was never phenomenal consciousness…

I see this comment nearly every time consciousness is brought up here and I’m pretty sure this is a misunderstanding of contemplative practices. Are you a practitioner who has arrived at this understanding, or is it possible you are misremembering a common contemplative “breakthrough” that the self (as separate from consciousness) is illusory, and you’re mistakenly remembering this as saying consciousness itself is i…

Personally I differentiate between 'awareness' and 'consciousness' and that makes it a bit clearer for me. Awareness of the 'suchness' of existence is what you're saying is the only thing we can be certain does actually exist. All the other "consciousness" things--self, self-awareness, thoughts, feelings, desires, even the senses themselves--are deconstructible into illusions.
Post reply on HN