Let's say a genie hands you a magic wand. The genie says "you can flick this wand at anything in the universe and - for 30 seconds - you will swap places with what you point it at." "You mean that if I flick it at my partner then I will 'be' her for 30 seconds and experience exactly how she feels and what she thinks??" "Yes", the genie responds. "And when I go back to my own body I will remember what it felt like?" "…
How does the wand know what I'm flicking it at? What if I miss? Maybe the wand thinks I'm targeting some tiny organism that lives on the organism that I'm actually targeting. Can I target the wand with itself?
The New AI Consciousness Paper
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Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
We can form and test hypotheses and experience the consequences. And then take that knowledge to our next trial. Even dogs and cats do this on a daily basis. Without that, how would we even evaluate whether something is conscious?
And these expectations are violated regularly? The question of how to evaluate whether something is conscious is totally different from the question of whether it actually is conscious.
I don't know what you're thinking of, but mine are.
Practice of any kind (sports, coding, puzzles) works like that.
Most of all: interactions with any other conscious entity. I carry at least intuitive expectations of how my wife / kid / co-workers / dog (if you count that) will respond to my behavior, but... Uh. Often wrong, and have to update my model of them or of myself.
I agree with your second paragraph.
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems very bold to assume the genie is sentient
Eh, it's talking to me, it's the safest bet. It's either that or nothing.
(I honestly don't know. If there's any phenomenal consciousness there it would have to be during inference, but I doubt it.)
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#84The good news is we can just wait until the AI is superintelligent, then have it explain to us what consciousness really is, and then we can use that to decide if the AI is conscious. Easy peasy!
(Said with tongue firmly in cheek.)
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#85It isn't surprising that "phenomenal consciousness" is the thing everyone gets hung about, after all we are all immersed in this water. The puzzle seems intractable but only because everyone is accepting the priors and not looking more carefully at it. This is the endpoint of meditation, and the observation behind some religious traditions, which is look carefully and see that there was never phenomenal consciousness…
I see this comment nearly every time consciousness is brought up here and I’m pretty sure this is a misunderstanding of contemplative practices. Are you a practitioner who has arrived at this understanding, or is it possible you are misremembering a common contemplative “breakthrough” that the self (as separate from consciousness) is illusory, and you’re mistakenly remembering this as saying consciousness itself is i…
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#86The good news is we can just wait until the AI is superintelligent, then have it explain to us what consciousness really is, and then we can use that to decide if the AI is conscious. Easy peasy!
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#87> In 2004, neuroscientist Giulio Tononi proposed that consciousness depended on a certain computational property, the integrated information level, dubbed Φ. Computer scientist Scott Aaronson complained that thermostats could have very high levels of Φ, and therefore integrated information theory should dub them conscious. Tononi responded that yup, thermostats are conscious. It probably isn’t a very interesting consciousness. They have no language or metacognition, so they can’t think thoughts like “I am a thermostat”. They just sit there, dimly aware of the temperature. You can’t prove that they don’t.
For whatever reason HN does not like integrated information theory. Neither does Aaronson. His critique is pretty great, but beyond poking holes in IIT, that critique also admits that it's the rare theory that's actually quantified and testable. The holes as such don't show conclusively that the theory is beyond repair. IIT is also a moving target, not something that's frozen since 2004. (For example [1]). Quickly dismissing it without much analysis and then bemoaning the poor state of discussion seems unfortunate!
The answer to the thermostat riddle is basically just "why did you expect a binary value for consciousness and why shouldn't it be a continuum?" Common sense and philosophers will both be sympathetic to the intuition here if you invoke animals instead of thermostats. If you wanted a binary yes/no for whatever reason, just use an arbitrary cut-off I guess, which will lead to various unintuitive conclusions.. but play stupid games and win stupid prizes.
For the other standard objections, like a oldschool library card-catalogue or a hard drive that encodes a contrived Vandermonde matrix being paradoxically more conscious than people, variations on IIT are looking at normalizing phi-values to disentangle matters of redundancy of information "modes". I haven't read the paper behind TFA and definitely don't have in-depth knowledge of Recurrent Processing Theory or Global Workspace Theory at all. But speaking as mere bystander, IIT seems very generic in its reach and economical in assumptions. Even if it's broken in the details, it's hard to imagine that some minor variant on the basic ideas would not be able to express other theories.
Phi ultimately is about applied mereology moving from the world of philosophy towards math and engineering, i.e. "is the whole more than the sum of the parts, if so how much more". That's the closest I've ever heard to anything touching on the hard problem and phenomenology.
[1] https://pubs.aip.org/aip/cha/article/32/1/013115/2835635/Int...
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#88> For some people (including me), a sense of phenomenal consciousness feels like the bedrock of existence, the least deniable thing; the sheer redness of red is so mysterious as to seem almost impossible to ground. Other people have the opposite intuition: consciousness doesn’t bother them, red is just a color, obviously matter can do computation, what’s everyone so worked up about? Philosophers naturally interpret t…
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh, it's talking to me, it's the safest bet. It's either that or nothing.
Right. So do you flick it at ChatGPT? It's talking to you, after all. (I honestly don't know. If there's any phenomenal consciousness there it would have to be during inference, but I doubt it.)
Re: The New AI Consciousness Paper
#90> For some people (including me), a sense of phenomenal consciousness feels like the bedrock of existence, the least deniable thing; the sheer redness of red is so mysterious as to seem almost impossible to ground. Other people have the opposite intuition: consciousness doesn’t bother them, red is just a color, obviously matter can do computation, what’s everyone so worked up about? Philosophers naturally interpret t…